• Registered: 2008-03-05
  • Posts: 119

Topic: Boycot development of widgets until Chumby stops the ads

Just wanted to say, for whatever its worth, that I'm not developing any more content for the Chumby until the Chumby company stops inserting ads and those silly "Chumby 101" notes on people's Chumby channels. These ads are, in my opinion, completely against the spirit of the Chumby which, to me at least, is all about open source and creating our own content.

They need to at least let people opt out of these ads. Bury the setting if they must, even make it only accessible by SSH, but let people turn off the ads.

And for people who say "the ads are the price of using the Chumby", I say no they aren't, *buying* it is the price of using the Chumby....

2 Reply by joltdude (edited by joltdude 2008-08-17 06:39:01)

  • Registered: 2008-02-21
  • Posts: 526

Re: Boycot development of widgets until Chumby stops the ads

You agreed to ads when you purchased the chumby... Your buying a service.. The only way Chumby will disable the ads is to charge for a subscription model... You realize running a server network is not free...
This is no different than the early days of buying a PC with a rebate from your ISP which used to be common in the late 80s/early 90s

Do a teardown of the cost for the parts of the chumby and youll see your still getting a deal...there isnt much of a markup on it

As Duane said.. the exits are clearly marked... You bought the device knowing there were ads on it and now say. Well i dont like them... I can see them doing something about the 101 stuff but not at the expense of losing *any* incoming revenue for reoccuring events ... Perhaps if youd like to pay their server fees they would be happy to get rid of all the ads... or pay a subscription fee per month like other online services... Theres always Widgetstation....I know they have a subscription fee.. or OOBE which left the market as I was informed (as a direct result of not being able to compete with the competition)

Its a shame too. you made some nice widgets..

3 Reply by chocochumbo (edited by chocochumbo 2008-08-17 09:53:33)

  • Registered: 2008-04-16
  • Posts: 16

Re: Boycot development of widgets until Chumby stops the ads

The chumby network isn't a charity service.  It costs a lot of money to maintain a server that constantly processes new content and delivers it to thousands of participants.  I think they've done an excellent job of keeping the ads to a minimal presence, and only broadcasting ones that're actually entertaining.

Chumby Industries isn't a charity service, either.  It's a business (albeit an extremely cool and forward-thinking one).  Until they file as a non-profit organization (yeah right), they do need some way of making money, and a one-time $180 for hardware barely gives them a profit on the device, never mind the costs of running a network.

The ads annoyed me at first too, but now I barely even notice them.  I greatly prefer having the occasional ad to having to pay for the content delivery.

4 Reply by Tommy (edited by Tommy 2008-08-17 09:52:59)

  • Tommy
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  • Registered: 2007-11-19
  • Posts: 113

Re: Boycot development of widgets until Chumby stops the ads

wrybread wrote:

And for people who say "the ads are the price of using the Chumby", I say no they aren't, *buying* it is the price of using the Chumby....

Buying it is the price of owning a Chumby. The ads are the price of using it. While some feel waylaid by that, I though they were pretty clear about it when I bought mine, which was long ago.

That said, I'd rather pay a monthly fee. I still think that would be a stronger revenue stream for them. Frankly, I don't keep enough widgets in rotation to ever see the ads.

I do agree that the 101 notices should be controllable, though. They don't provide income for them, so all they do is annoy users after awhile.

Tommy's Website

5 Reply by darundal (edited by darundal 2008-08-17 13:59:31)

  • Registered: 2008-01-08
  • Posts: 172

Re: Boycot development of widgets until Chumby stops the ads

Actually, the more I think about it, the more I get the idea that the Chumby 101 widgets are there so that they can have something during the intervals for the ads, perhaps as a test of some sort to figure out what ad intervals people like (at what point do the ads come up so much that people find them annoying), and, obviously, so that they can have a way of informing users of new Chumby functionality (say, the accelerometer based widget switching when the new CP is out of beta).

I do think that they 101 widgets themselves should be toned down. If they are being used as a test of how often ad's should appear, they could perhaps mix it up a little. Seeing the same ad telling you how to use your Chumby gets annoying quickly.

Wrybeard, the purchase price of the Chumby is the cost of the hardware itself and any software on it. The ads are the price of using the Chumby network. I get the frustration at the fact that you paid for something which displays ads every once in a while, but could you suggest something else? The costs of running any type of network can't be absorbed because the markup on the Chumby unit itself is, IIRC, nil or nearly nil.

So, what do you suggest? Should they raise the Chumby's price? Should they offer subscriptions to the network? Whatever you suggest, remember that their stated goal is to grow the network. They want their content network to be used by other companies, and that the Chumby is a means to that end. The whole model is about getting other companies to use the network and make money by selling the advertising.

Of course, if I remembered that incorrectly, it would be nice if one of the Chumbians would step in and explain where I was mistaken.

  • Registered: 2008-03-05
  • Posts: 119

Re: Boycot development of widgets until Chumby stops the ads

I really don't accept that the cost of the product itself and the cost to *use* the product are different. I don't pay extra to use my GPS or my iPod or any other gizmo I own with the exception of my cellphone.

At $180, Chumbies are definitely not being given away at anything close to a loss. There's not much to them, not much more than a cellphone really. I'd be surprised if the unit cost approaches $60. And they're sold directly by chumby.com, so the rest is all profit.

As far as the supposed high cost of maintaining the Chumby network, this isn't the 90's, bandwidth and hosting are cheap. I'd guess its a couple of servers, total of $500 or so a month if that. Granted they have a bunch of people working on the network, but I'd argue a) that's factored into the price of buying it, and b) they need to make the network a bit more self-maintaining. By that I mean cut out the approval process, let users rate widgets and decide for themselves through forum posts and ratings whether a widget is worth while.  Look at the way Winamp organizes their plugins: anyone can upload one, but the good ones float to the top through the ratings process. Remember Web 2.0?

Furthermore, I'd be *very* surprised if these ads are making any money. I agree with Darundal that the "Chumby 101" spots are probably just blank ads, placeholders for when they finally sell some more ad content. So at a minimum, please just let us turn off the "Chumby 101" spots.

Granted I can use the Chumby in ways that don't involve the Chumby network, and I'm grateful for that and, despite my ranty posts, still consider the Chumby a great gizmo. I just think they need to fix this one little issue to get back in the spirit of what makes Chumbies great.

  • Duane
  • Duane
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  • From: San Diego, CA
  • Registered: 2006-08-24
  • Posts: 8,209

Re: Boycot development of widgets until Chumby stops the ads

If you can make chumbys for $60, we'll buy them from you. I'd also *love* to run our data center for only $500/month.

I'm sorry, $60 is ridiculously low, even in million-unit volume.

The parts list is publicly available - please price it out. If you can find less expensive sources for our parts, pleas let us know.  Be sure to take into account the cost of manufacturing, hardware and software development (personally, I like to eat), the Adobe license, the licenses for the various codecs, the cost of the molds, the raw materials and inventory float, warehousing, and G&A.

Cellphones are subsidized, at least in the US, with multiyear contracts that hide the actual cost.

*Used* Nokia 770's are going for $199, with new ones still over $250 - that's very similar hardware, and there's no service with that, free or otherwise.

Duane's Website

8 Reply by tismey (edited by tismey 2008-08-18 00:15:40)

  • Registered: 2007-10-17
  • Posts: 150

Re: Boycot development of widgets until Chumby stops the ads

I think the problem here is one of a misconception that a few people seem to have, which is that the "spirit of the Chumby" is all about "open-source software". It's not. Chumby are a commercial organisation, making a commercial product that happens to be founded on open-source software and they're cool with people hacking it and messing about with the hardware and software.

As far as the supposed high cost of maintaining the Chumby network, this isn't the 90's, bandwidth and hosting are cheap. I'd guess its a couple of servers, total of $500 or so a month if that

But what happens when Chumby goes big-time, when it becomes the new must-have gadget that's on every teenagers bedside table as well as every geek's desk? Any business model has to be scalable. There has to be resilience, in order to avoid the embarrassing outages experienced by Twiter users. But you can't change your business model because you become successful - users won't accept suddenly having to pay for something that they used to get for free. So Chumby might not be making a lot off the advertising now, but that's the gamble - that as the business grows, the adverts will become more profitable.

You accepted the adverts when you bought the Chumby. If you don't want them, the you can always take yourself offline - you obviously have the skills to do it. But if you want the convenience and the services of the Chumby network, then *someone* has to pay for it.

(edited to remove a slightly facetious comment that was neither helpful to the conversation, nor made evry much sense when I thought about it)

9 Reply by joltdude (edited by joltdude 2008-08-18 08:37:11)

  • Registered: 2008-02-21
  • Posts: 526

Re: Boycot development of widgets until Chumby stops the ads

You dont pay extra for use of your GPS..... What kind of GPS do you own... the base map costs are *rolled in* to the cost of the GPS (some even roll in the cost of the upgrades too, such as Navagon).. Plus im pretty sure getting the current maps for your GPS costs a subscription fee.... There are exceptions of course but i know that Garmin, Magellan, and Tom Tom, all *CHARGE* for map updates....Also if you want to use your GPS in the Nokia N810 you have to buy the Wayfinder Premium upgrade even though the unit comes with a built in GPS...or its pretty close to useless.. and that too is a "subscription" model... rather overpriced one at that (79Euro per year last i checked)

And if you want weather and news on your cell phone you pay a subscription fee..
If you want apps for your Ipod you pay a fee...
If you want Iphone apps you pay a fee....
Oh.. the fact that for the longest time you had to use Itunes and buy sound files only from the Itunes Store (yes i know this has changed... and sure you can Rip your own)... but there is a charge for that privledge... even though its very slim (due to apples philosophy in regards to music sales)...

Also as someone put it to me.. even if you have a paid subscription model, the cost of managing/admin/credit card fees.... you actually have to UP the subscription cost just to cover the option of having a subscription in additional support fees.. the ads are rather unobtrusive (no sound unless played)... and unlike apple or the cell phone providers they are letting open source apps on their device, and not require licensing or really approval to let a app do what you want... Try making a app for a cellphone .. Verizon in particular... Do you know theres a minimum you can charge, and a minimum license fee... TO QUALCOMM for a "certificate" to sign the app and its per app... you basically got to front the money up front if you want to release a app, regardless of its utility... In many ways the chumby is very forward thinking and taking a risk...

  • Registered: 2008-04-16
  • Posts: 16

Re: Boycot development of widgets until Chumby stops the ads

wrybread wrote:

I really don't accept that the cost of the product itself and the cost to *use* the product are different. I don't pay extra to use my GPS or my iPod or any other gizmo I own with the exception of my cellphone.

Think of using Chumby widgets like using a website--which is really what it is, it's a Flash content website that you access through a computer (albeit a small, cuddly one).  Do you know of any large-scale entertainment website that doesn't have advertising?

Regardless of the amount of profit CI makes off of hardware sales, that is a one-time source of income that is going to dry up after the market's saturated--but they'll still have to pay ever-growing costs for their content delivery system, AND manage to turn a profit.

Imagine the network costs $500 a day to maintain, and there are 1000 users.  That's $0.50 per user that CI has to pay.  They make a profit $30 on the hardware sold, which allows them to run the Chumby network for 60 days.  Whether these numbers are accurate or not (and I'm positive they're not) is largely irrelevant--my point is, going off hardware income gives the Chumby network a very limited lifespan.

That means some kind of on-going source of income.  I'm sure you don't want subscription costs.  Advertising is a tried-and-true method, and CI has managed to deploy it in a way that seems as unobtrusive as possible.

  • muso
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  • From: UK
  • Registered: 2008-07-20
  • Posts: 15

Re: Boycot development of widgets until Chumby stops the ads

chocochumbo wrote:

That means some kind of on-going source of income.  I'm sure you don't want subscription costs.  Advertising is a tried-and-true method, and CI has managed to deploy it in a way that seems as unobtrusive as possible.

I agree with that, and without knowing anything about forecasts / predictions / sales and profits, then any argument about effectiveness of this particular advertising is moot.  The fact remains that you can create additional funds in any number of ways...

The most important attribute in Chumby's favour is community; the larger the community is, the better the potential for earning revenue is.  If the advertising used turns too many potential / future users from buying into Chumby, or continue using it, then there won't be enough revenue from this advertising anyway.

Less obtrusive advertising that I could think of might be:

1. selling advertising through the chumby.com website instead
2. allowing widget developers to "premium" widgets, and take a cut
3. accept sponsorship (which might be included on packaging / marketing material)
4. ask for voluntary donations/support
5. competitions / contests
6. gambling widgets...
...

There is massive potential, but as I said, it's going to be better for Chumby if it's better for most users too.

Personally I don't mind what happens, as long as the Chumby continues to be supported and developed, and the overall spirit of open community and development is continued.  I actually think the best option would be a hack that can remove some/all advertising that requires ssh access.  Perhaps there could be incentives to creating widgets by reducing advertising to the developers (good widgets add value to the service after all)...

Anyway, just thinking out loud...

muso's Website

  • Registered: 2007-11-21
  • Posts: 35

Re: Boycot development of widgets until Chumby stops the ads

boycotting development of widgets only hurts us, the users!

  • From: Boston, MA
  • Registered: 2008-08-18
  • Posts: 11

Re: Boycot development of widgets until Chumby stops the ads

If the ads are what lets Chumby Ind. keep providing us with the community-driven architecture then I can live with that.  I hate ads as much as the next guy but....

four2oh wrote:

boycotting development of widgets only hurts us, the users!

...amen!  Honestly also if one of us really spent some time and figured out where the ads came from we could have our own fix.  IMHO thats part of the spirit of the device is that we can hack the crap out of it.  If we don't like ads then lets get rid of em, no?  I'll step up but I also regard this issue like the early TiVo hacking unwritten rules.  You don't mess with things that ruin the fun for everyone else.  If there is a patch that can blow away the ads then Chumby will have to work around it since their advertisers will know its getting blocked.  That starts a war between Chumby and the hardcore users that always ends up with the users getting locked out.

Also lets be a little reasonable.  Everything that Chumby Ind. has done so far we are a fan of, right?  Lets wait it out a bit instead of jumping to a (IMHO very harsh) boycott tongue

  • Registered: 2008-04-16
  • Posts: 16

Re: Boycot development of widgets until Chumby stops the ads

The device is hackable.  The network, I'm presuming, isn't meant to be.  Ads are part of the network; if you like all that free content delivery, maybe you can live with the occasional ad.

  • From: Boston, MA
  • Registered: 2008-08-18
  • Posts: 11

Re: Boycot development of widgets until Chumby stops the ads

chocochumbo wrote:

The device is hackable.  The network, I'm presuming, isn't meant to be.  Ads are part of the network; if you like all that free content delivery, maybe you can live with the occasional ad.

I can agree with that.  Also, does anyone really see the ads?  I think I've had like...one or two that I've caught.

  • Registered: 2008-03-12
  • Posts: 8

Re: Boycot development of widgets until Chumby stops the ads

FWIW, I personally intend to develop even more widgets for the Chumby with the release of the latest control panel. I feel that Chumby Ind. has been more responsive and more flexible than most companies.

My perspective is that a continuing service (the website, the widget repository, etc.) has ongoing expenses and requires ongoing revenue. If that revenue can come from advertisers, it means I don't have to pay a subscription fee.

  • Registered: 2010-12-15
  • Posts: 22

Re: Boycot development of widgets until Chumby stops the ads

The latest round of ad insertion has made my chumby unsuitable for my intended purpose: bedside clock with weather.  If this persists, the chumby will be turned off, unfortunately.

  • Registered: 2011-02-13
  • Posts: 2

Re: Boycot development of widgets until Chumby stops the ads

Stop the ads!  I don't have an Android phone and I don't care about Android in even the slightest!

If any more crap gets inserted into my channels without my consent, the Chumby will be permanently disconnected and I'll find out if it will blend!

  • From: Bethesda, MD USA
  • Registered: 2007-11-15
  • Posts: 124

Re: Boycot development of widgets until Chumby stops the ads

C'mon folks, get real.  Since the very start it was made clear the chumby would be used for some amount of advertising.  It's never been a secret that it could occur.  At some point it's possible they could go overboard with it.  But as it stands now it's harmless.   Move along, nothing to see here...

  • From: Tulsa, OK
  • Registered: 2008-08-04
  • Posts: 657

Re: Boycot development of widgets until Chumby stops the ads

At it's peak I was putting out $600 a year to host my networked apps.  I made hosting costs for Chumbyland the first year it ran, but none since.  I pulled a good majority of those apps, and will probably cut more soon.  I just can't afford it.  If chumby ind doesnt figure out a model, these conversations will amount to nada anyway.  I think it will get ironed out over time.  I have never found CI to not at least listen.  More than you can say of other companies.

I will still be developing apps for the chumby in the foreseeable future.

-dev

Get -> Chumbyland | Joice | Word Up | Newsdom

cbreeze's Website

  • Registered: 2009-05-14
  • Posts: 45

Re: Boycot development of widgets until Chumby stops the ads

cbreeze wrote:

At it's peak I was putting out $600 a year to host my networked apps.  I made hosting costs for Chumbyland the first year it ran, but none since.

Now you've piqued my interest.  Have you priced out Amazon Web Services?  I'm very interested to learn more about your hosting infrastructure and its costs.

Thanks in advance!

  • Registered: 2011-07-28
  • Posts: 8

Re: Boycot development of widgets until Chumby stops the ads

I knew there might be ads when I picked up my 3rd Chumbian device.

I still hope for a subscription service where I can get more controls and no ads.  Controls like, "DO NOT INFORM THIS CHUMBY ABOUT UPDATES", "NOTIFY CHUMBIAN OWNER VIA EMAIL ON SOFTWARE UPDATE AVAILABILITY", "DEFAULT CHUMBY TO ALLOW SSH", "ALLOW CLOUD BACKUPS OF CHUMBY" wink

You get the idea.  Ways to enhance the ownership experience for the Chumbian in the house and prevent accidental updates that might delete or change any hacks done to the base system.

  • From: Tulsa, OK
  • Registered: 2008-08-04
  • Posts: 657

Re: Boycot development of widgets until Chumby stops the ads

kriston wrote:
cbreeze wrote:

At it's peak I was putting out $600 a year to host my networked apps.  I made hosting costs for Chumbyland the first year it ran, but none since.

Now you've piqued my interest.  Have you priced out Amazon Web Services?  I'm very interested to learn more about your hosting infrastructure and its costs.

Thanks in advance!

Yes I have looked into AWS, and to be honest it's like reading tea leaves trying to figure out what the actual costs will be.  Even at the "micro" level it "looked" like it was going to be over $200 a month to do something similar, as the instance will need to run 24/7.  Right now I rent a small-size server for $50 a month and it performs fine.  I did move most assets over to S3 though to take some load off the server.

Hope that helps.

Get -> Chumbyland | Joice | Word Up | Newsdom

cbreeze's Website