Topic: What's with the mature content?

Are you kidding me? How are you going to filter this content for children visiting the site? Or are you just appealing to male perverts?

Seriously, there is no way an educational institution is going to even look at the idea of the chumby in the classroom (which is only a 4 Billion dollar/year industry) with this type of content. I'm referring to the Celebrity Women Images and the Borat Quotes.

Of course now that I read your terms of service agreement you say in section 5.2 Disclaimer that you're not responsible for any pornography displayed, and in section 5.1 Prohibited Content, you don't prohibit it.

There is no way I'm giving one of these as a gift to any child, knowing that you don't filter your content, and that you support pornography.

I urge you to reconsider and change your policies.

Brent

Re: What's with the mature content?

Huh?  Since when was this a device targeted to schools or children?  Maybe I'm just cheap, but I wouldn't blow $180 on a device my kid has no need for.

That aside, if a parent decided to buy one of these for their child, I think it would be pretty simple to limit what content appears on the device.  The parent keeps the logon ID & password to the Chumby site (without sharing it with the child), then the parent can select what widgets appear, plain & simple.

Chumby birthdate: 10/11/07

Re: What's with the mature content?

So the cute little "chumby charms" are for adults?

How could this not be used for kids?

The possibilities for educational use are endless. Schools spend thousands of dollars a year on computer/electronic educational products. I agree that you can certainly monitor the account, but you can't even approach a school and sell them on the idea if they go to the website to investigate it and there's this kind of content. They'd turn you away at the door. Believe me, educational software is big business. Chumby Inc. would be fools if they didn't consider it.

Brent

Re: What's with the mature content?

I never said kids *couldn't* use it, just that the device never seemed (to me anyway) to be targeted to kids.  I never quite got the chumby charms thing, though my wife thinks they're great. 

Just my $.02, but if Chumby Industries got serious about selling this to kids, they'd probably come out with a model specifically targeted to them.

But we're getting way ahead of ourselves.  This is a product very much in its infancy, if you'll pardon the term.  Seems pretty clear to me that for now they are targeting young adults as their key demographic.

Chumby birthdate: 10/11/07

Re: What's with the mature content?

Also, FWIW the "mature" content seems quite tame.  At least the stuff I've seen, anyway.

Chumby birthdate: 10/11/07

6 (edited by iBrent 2007-11-09 09:45:58)

Re: What's with the mature content?

You bring up a valid point, this does seem to be geared to young adults, though all they'd need to do for children is add more colors to choose from.

My main complaint relates to the fact that anyone can view the widgets on the website and that they support pornography in their widgets. All they have to do is change there policy and screen their widgets.

Am I wrong here?

Brent

[EDIT:] and what I mean by support pornography is that they don't screen for it, they don't take responsibility if it shows up and they don't prohibit it. What's stopping people from uploading it?

That and "Celebrity Women Images" and "Borat Quotes" are just the starting point which would lead to soft porn.

7 (edited by jhaluska 2007-11-09 10:23:04)

Re: What's with the mature content?

iBrent wrote:

Am I wrong here?

Yes.  The Chumby is just a small touch screen computer, and I think this issue is already present on computers.  The most you're going to accomplish is that you have the user click an "I am at least 18" years old, or enter their age upon creating an account.  If they were to target educational facilities or the youth market, they'd simple set up a different website with age appropriate material.

Besides, I think Chumby Inc would make more more money targeting the very popular male pervert sector than the educational sector, since the adult entertainment business is 12 billion a year industry.

Won't someone think of the male perverts? big_smile

8 (edited by derspiess 2007-11-09 10:35:54)

Re: What's with the mature content?

Whoa.  First off, none of the widgets are anywhere near 'pornographic'.

And Chumby Industries doesn't "support pornography" any more than Dell, Apple, HP, etc. PCs do. 

You're way off-base here.  Do you go to web forms for manufacturers of digital picture frames & criticize them for the fact that someone could display dirty pictures on their devices?

Chumby birthdate: 10/11/07

9 (edited by iBrent 2007-11-09 10:41:55)

Re: What's with the mature content?

So you're telling me that HP has ads for viagra and other social network sites and other "non-pornographic" but adult-themed content on their websites?

My point is this is just leading down a path that does not need to be.

Again, the complaint is not that you can show porn on your chumby (I don't care what you watch), but that their website doesn't stop adult-themed material from being displayed to children.

Re: What's with the mature content?

This has been, of course, a topic of discussion internally.

The problem here is that we can't make an open, hackable device for developers and also provide any kind of broad censorship of what they're allowed to do.  I believe all of the widgets you're talking about are created by third parties, not us - and we're reluctant to unilaterally pass judgement on any particular widget when it's virtually impossible to arrive at any consensus about suitability.  We will, of course, block widgets on the basis of legality.

The widgets themselves generally don't contain mature content - they're typically fetching content from third-party sites that may be mature in nature.  Since these transactions are going directly between the chumby and the third party site, our servers are not in the loop and have no opportunity to filter even if we were so inclined.

What shows up on the chumby will, in the long run, probably be representative of the content of the general Internet for better or worse.  It is *guaranteed* that some people will be offended by some content at some point.

My suggestion to a parent or educator that wants to give a chumby to a child is to keep control over the chumby's registered account. Simply don't let your child have access to the widget configuration.  That's the best filtering there is.

I will, however, bring this issue up again internally for further discussion.

11 (edited by iBrent 2007-11-09 10:45:05)

Re: What's with the mature content?

It's all well and good to control what widgets your child sees on their chumby. I agree that's how to do it.

But if anyone can view the widgets on your website, unfiltered, then you're showing inappropriate material to minors. That is the problem.

Re: What's with the mature content?

iBrent wrote:

But if anyone can view the widgets on your website, unfiltered, then you're showing inappropriate material to minors. That is the problem.

A valid point - as I said, I'll bring it up.

Do you have any suggestions how we can accurately determine that a random visitor to our site is a child?

13 (edited by iBrent 2007-11-09 11:00:14)

Re: What's with the mature content?

You could put up sarcastic remarks and hope they leave?

How about what any other business does, only allow registered users access to certain content. It's one thing to have a list of widgets people can view as a visitor, it's another to have for registered users. I don't have all the answers, but plenty of other reputable businesses can figure it out.

Obviously there's no way to stop kids from seeing inappropriate content on the web, without being right there with them. I'm just saying that you need to do something about your website.

Re: What's with the mature content?

iBrent wrote:

So you're telling me that HP has ads for viagra and other social network sites and other "non-pornographic" but adult-themed content on their websites?

My point is this is just leading down a path that does not need to be.

Again, the complaint is not that you can show porn on your chumby (I don't care what you watch), but that their website doesn't stop adult-themed material from being displayed to children.

Okay, so you shifted your complaint from mature content on the Chumby to mature content on their website.  I missed where you did that when I typed my post. 

Honest question: do you go to Google & other places and complain that there is no solid barrier to children accessing inappropriate content?

Chumby birthdate: 10/11/07

Re: What's with the mature content?

iBrent wrote:

You could put up sarcastic remarks and hope they leave?

I'm sorry if I gave the impression I was being sarcastic - it seemed to me like you'd thought about this a bit more than we had and were perhaps aware of some technique we hadn't seen.  I admit I'm not up to snuff on all that's going on out there with regard to this issue.

Re: What's with the mature content?

iBrent wrote:

Obviously there's no way to stop kids from seeing inappropriate content on the web, without being right there with them. I'm just saying that you need to do something besides "here, it's free, it's open, it's my chumby, do you want to touch it?"

Well the buyers can read the user agreement before purchasing, and if they don't like it they don't have to buy it or give it to their children, or because it is hackable they could create their own user panel that is their own personal Utopia.  Consider doing what Craiglist has and allowing users to flag mature content to make your life easier.  Chances are you'll want to also approve any widgets that show up on your website not necessarily what will be shown to registered users.

PS. Duane, I do not want your job.

Re: What's with the mature content?

Sorry, that quote you gave was before I edited it. I was a bit upset, and I shouldn't have said that.

Re: What's with the mature content?

Well it seems I've started out in these forums on the wrong foot. I'm sure people are thinking "Who the heck is this iBrent person and why is he such a prude?"

Some background...

I've been developing widgets already for the chumby (Yahoo Maps, and a number of others not public yet, including a Sudoku widget, Drawing widget, and a few games), all free of charge because I love this thing. I love programming and this is a fun, unique product that I hope does well.

I also work in the educational software business (no, really, I do.) And up to this point I've been fanatically promoting this device all around my office. Everyone know's me as "Brent and his Chumby" (and yes, they laugh too.) But I persevere and defend it as being a revolutionary product that will change education as we know it. Again, I'm the biggest Chumby fan there is. If I had a shirt that said, "Ask me about my Chumby" I'd wear it!

And then I start seeing these "mature" content widgets, and after investigating further discover that Chumby, Inc. does not prohibit it. With such easy access on their website to all of the widgets, my dream of an educational product was shattered. If they don't monitor this stuff, what's to stop them from allowing real porn on their website? How can I refer other educators to the site, if there is objectionable material right there on the widgets page?

As you can imagine, I can't tell my company, "Oh it's a great educational product, just don't look at the website". I suppose it's more of a marketing thing. If there were an educational portal that was family friendly that I could refer people to, then that would be ideal. I guess because I have so much invested in this, and I'm an educator at heart, I just couldn't believe that Chumby Inc. would not prohibit mature content on their site and/or widgets. So this is why I brought it up.

Yes, you are all absolutely right, a parent can control what their child sees on their chumby. They can monitor their website viewing, etc., etc. But as a marketing tool in it's current condition, I can't recommend this to any educator/parent/non-male perverts. wink

Thanks for listening,

Brent

P.S. I'll be releasing my source code for all these widgets as well in the forums, real soon. I like open-source a lot.

Re: What's with the mature content?

iBrent, thanks for weighing in with your concerns -- we really do take them seriously, and I appreciate hearing other members of our community on this issue too.  As Duane said, this is a huge topic and it's heavily debated around here.  Bottom-line is that the chumby is essentially the full real Internet, but on a 3.5" diagonal screen, and chopped up into bite-sized pieces of Flash, called "widgets" -- with everything that's good and bad about the Internet.  The minute we, or any other site or service, accepts user-generated content, the appropriateness of this user-generated content will be an issue.  The debate around what constitutes "pornography" (or even "inappropriate") is obviously a well-visited, yet likely forever unresolvable, issue.  The opinions of Chumby's management or our community are unlikely to be dispositive on the issue.  For sure, pictures of certain parts of the anatomy and certain words and themes are "mature," which is why we absolutely try to label as such widgets that we know to contain them (let us know if we're missing any).  And we're going to be building in more community rating/reporting features that enable the community to bring content issues to our intention -- as stated before, and especially as the widget stream grows, we just can't police everything ourselves.

With respect to who our audience is and how we promote Chumby, we have never promoted the chumby as appropriate for anyone younger than an older teenager. The chumby may be cute and adorable (can't older people have cute and adorable things too?  How many "Hello, Kittys" do I see in the hands of adults?), but that doesn't mean it's a toy -- and if it was ever classified as a toy, that would be a real issue for us given the regulatory burden around toys (every day in the paper another horror story out of China).  When you click on the "Get the whole story" link from our front page you get this text as part of the page you see:

"Are the widgets on a chumby screened for content?

When you use a chumby, you choose what shows up on it. Many of the widgets use information straight from web sites on the Internet, so some of this content may be more mature in nature than others. Artists and developers may also create widgets with themes that are not appropriate for some teens. If you're concerned about what will appear on a chumby, be sure to educate yourself on the source of the content. CollegeHumor isn't the Weather Channel!"

And we repeat this refrain in multiple places on our site, including on the Chumby Store before anyone purchases one.

You can also not create a Chumby account if you are too young -- or at least we deploy the best practices we  know about in this regard (but as Duane says, we're always open to better, more secure ways to do this).

All this said, as a parent of a 13-year old and an 8-year old and who would never ever let my kids have an account on a social networking site where they could see anything remotely unseemly, I'm completely fine with my kids having a chumby in their rooms.  I manage the content on these, so I can see that it's "Stuff on My Cat," "Blue Ball Factory," family-only "Flickr Photo" feeds, and "Daily Puppy" on their chumbys and I know and manage who my kids' "chums" are and what permissions any of these other people have to share content directly to my kids' chumbys.  In other words, I can create a totally controlled, managed and safe environment for them within the broader and more open context of the Chumby Network.

Vis-a-vis your point on how to screen children from the potentially mature-themed widget examples that are browseable on our site so you can see what you're getting yourself into *before* these go onto a chumby: on the one hand, I'm not totally sure how we could screen kids out of this area without a really awkward system, and indeed there are many sites on the Internet where people can see things that may offend them, even unintentionally.  So this seems like a generic "Internet problem" rather than uniquely a "Chumby problem."  On the other hand, we'll dig into this a bit more and see what we can come up with.  In general, best policy for many parents is to not let children freely browse sites on the Internet -- our site or any other site -- though I've heard parents that I consider responsible not necessarily agree with this restriction.

Re: What's with the mature content?

Yes, I suppose one solution here would be to create a "Kid-Friendly Chumby Portal" where only tightly-screened content would be available.  But, at this stage of our brand and our product introduction, doing so would only convince people that, in fact, the chumby *is* a toy.  Once considered a toy for little kids, no teenager will get near it.  The chumby is not a toy -- we're not marketing it that way, we're not pursuing content relationships specifically for young children, and we're repeatedly and actively trying to make it clear that the chumby gives you your favorite Internet information and content at a glance, including that created and shared by others -- it's wide open, not necessarily protected and safe.  As stated earlier, and even given all of this, chumbys absolutely *can* be managed by parents to be as protected, closed and safe as they would like them to be -- in fact far more control than a parent would typically have over an Internet-connected PC.

Re: What's with the mature content?

So, would the solution be self-policing of widget makers? If, when the widget is uploaded it is marked adult, it will only be displayed for the logged in users with 'I am above 18' rating in a special category. For the public users, the whole category would be skipped or instead display a generic 'mature content' message.

This is obviously not a perfect solution, but apart from doing chumby.com and adultchumby.com website separation, I am not seeing a better one.

Re: What's with the mature content?

There are several anti-semitic quotes in the Borat widget. This is not "mature content;" it is racist and offensive.
Rich

Dallas TX
Chumby1 Birthday 11/1/07

Re: What's with the mature content?

n5csu wrote:

There are several anti-semitic quotes in the Borat widget. This is not "mature content;" it is racist and offensive.
Rich

One could argue the fact that since Sacha Baron Cohen (Borat) is himself Jewish, it is for educational awareness of anti-semitism...or maybe it's just crude comedy.

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

Re: What's with the mature content?

could you please remove the mature widgets from the highest rated, most viewed, etc.  categories?

I don't feel comfortable directing my friends ( and teachers ) to a site with mature content on their highest rated list.
It may give them the wrong impression about the chumbians...

Re: What's with the mature content?

This topic seems to have run its course, but someone bumped it to the top so I will chime in with my 2 cents worth...

I have 3 kids aged 10, 8, and 6.  We work extremely hard to not let them see material that we feel is inappropriate.

However, they all have their own Chumby channels on my account.  They enjoy clicking the chumby and changing it to their channel.  I sat with them individually and let them pick the widgets for their channel.  (Needless to say we have no shortage of animal, cute, and zoo webcam widgets).  The process was painless and a better screening than anything that could have been automated by Chumby.com because I even skipped the ones I knew they would find boring too smile

iBrent, I feel your pain but I think your concern is invalid.  By your logic, you could not feel comfortable recommending computers to schools because of the objectionable content that could be shown on them.  I think you could simply and clearly communicate the potential of the device as an educational tool but only if configured with the appropriate widgets.

Having gone through it with my kids, my recommendation is to provide a better widget browsing/search capability.  It would have saved me some time if I could have clicked on a few different search criteria and then searched for all matches.  I could easily eliminate mature widgets that way when I am trying to let my kids create a channel.  The more data you could provide the better the search could be (user flagging for mature content, ratings, etc..)