Topic: New computer Pt 2- OS?

Thanks for all your thoughts above. I've run into a new dilemma. Looks like Windows 7 is almost extinct, which I expected to buy. Win 8 looks impossible for a real computer, made for tablets and cloud computing, but not running onboard programs eg Photoshop. Any thoughts on this OS? I'd bolt from Windows altogether except that 10 years of my life is beautifully recorded in Outlook. (Well, plus a few wonderful programs like Stellarium.) Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

Re: New computer Pt 2- OS?

Why would you say Windows7 is almost extinct? You can still find new copies for sale. Microsoft will have to support it for many years. I would think Windows7 would be your best bet. If you MUST go Windows8 check out Start8 or Classic Shell. You get back much of the same feeling of Windows7.

http://www.stardock.com/products/start8/

http://sourceforge.net/projects/classicshell/

If you wanted to go the Linux route, you can move your outlook email to Thunderbird: http://blog.tech4him.com/moving-outlook … ntu-linux/

Stellarium is available for linux:  http://www.stellarium.org/

Tar, feathers, congress. Some assembly required.

Re: New computer Pt 2- OS?

Just buy a copy of Windows 7 from Newegg.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductLi … Submit=ENE

Re: New computer Pt 2- OS?

nathanm wrote:

Just buy a copy of Windows 7 from Newegg.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductLi … Submit=ENE

Hah, I was just going to check Newegg!  They've been running promos on Win7 a lot lately, most recently 10% off all Windows packages, and then a $20 off promo code for Home Premium 64-bit OEM; unfortunately all the promo codes seem to be expired at this point, but if you're willing to wait a week or so I'll let you know if they drop something new.  You probably don't want to wait too long though, or else they might end up discontinuing Win7 tongue

Promo codes notwithstanding, Amazon is currently selling it a bit cheaper than Newegg (~$94 vs $99) http://www.amazon.com/dp/B004Q0PT3I/ .

Re: New computer Pt 2- OS?

Yes, it is difficult to find Windows 7 pre-installed on a consumer computer. As BoloMKXXVIII mentioned, there are add-ons that are much, much cheaper than buying a computer with Win8 and then buying Win7 and installing it. Start8 is $5. Classic Shell is free.

All that being said, I would strongly recommend using Win8 in its native mode for 2 or 3 weeks before giving up on it. I find it is relatively easy to switch from the Metro interface (the tablet interface that comes up natively) to the Desktop mode that is essentially the old Windows interface without the Start button. The additions, like fast program switching by swiping from the left and access to the Metro interface by swiping from the right are real handy.

I would also recommend getting a computer with a touch screen. In that mode, Win8 is really pleasant to use, after some self-training. (Yes, it is not Windows 7, or any other version of Windows. And I have used them all going back to Windows 3.1.) Plus, there are several sites with suggestions for customization that you can find.

I will say that after getting used to a touch interface on my iPad, phone, Chumby and now Win8 laptop, I find myself touching my monitor at work far too frequently because the touch interface seems so natural. Unfortunately, that just does not work with my old-fashioned monitor on a Win7 computer sad

Re: New computer Pt 2- OS?

Ehertz, you make good points, however Windows 8 is bad at being a desktop operating system. I know this for a couple of reasons.

1. It doesn't work well with non-wide screens. I like 4:3 for most things, like web browsing and writing, and I don't mind letterboxing for videos. On Windows 8, there are a number of features that need or are optimized for widescreen, like using two apps at once, the new start screen, where you have to scroll horizontally, and the Microsoft-provided apps.

2. Windows 8's user interface just sucks. There are ads in all the Microsoft apps, there's no obvious way to search system preferences, and I couldn't find a way to close any Metro application. I eventually had to give up and use Alt+F4.

3. The "Gorilla Arm" problem. If you haven't heard of this, it's pretty much the reason why touchscreens should not be used on desktops. To demonstrate it, hold your arm out in front of you while making very small movements.

Re: New computer Pt 2- OS?

Yes, nathanm, there are certainly negatives. Believe it or not, I have read Jakob Nielsen's criticisms as well as those of others. For better or worse, the world is turning into a place where 16:9 screens are the norm, whether on a movie screen, my cell phone, iPad or the TV in my living room and companies like Microsoft are trying to figure out how to develop a consistent UI for all their products.

Is it perfect? Absolutely not. If I were in charge, there would be a whole lot of changes. But for some reason, Steve Baller keeps forgetting to call me.

But at least Microsoft almost always supports legacy applications, which is something I appreciate. Yes, I still have a desktop with Office 2000 on it. While I don't know for sure, I suspect Word 2000 could be made to run on Win 8, with some effort. I know I can run Juice (aka iPodder), my favorite podcast aggregator in Win8, and that has not been updated since 2006. In storage, I have an Apple II+, and much of the software I ran on that could not even run on an Apple IIc.

Enough of history. Today, Win8 allows me to switch between Desktop mode and Metro mode, as I do frequently, depending on what I am trying to do. When working in Word or Excel, as I do several times a day, I am in Desktop mode, with a traditional keyboard and trackball. For a quick look at my email, I am in Metro mode, where I can tap a few icons on the touchscreen, preview my mail, and select what I want to look at. You are right, just like on the iPad, Metro apps do not close, they just stay in the background. Metro is a tablet-oriented interface, while Desktop is a traditional productivity-application interface. Both have their place.

If you want to stay in the Windows world, and you are not a business, then what you will find pre-installed on virtually all consumer laptops is Win8. If you are dead set on not using the Metro interface under any circumstances, spend $5 and get Start8 and you will have 99% of the appearance and functionality of Win7.

Oh, and as for the ads, you know what, both my iPad and my Android phone have lots free apps with ads in them. If you want an ad-free experience, you need to chip in a few dollars to the developer. If you want people to develop apps for your products, you need to find a way to compensate them for the effort. As much as I love the Chumby, one major downside has been that there was never a way to attract sufficient interest from developers because apps generated no money for the developer. So unlike iPad apps, which have frequent updates, Chumby apps were rarely updated.

In the end, bobsz's question seemed to be could he live with Win8. My answer is yes.

Re: New computer Pt 2- OS?

ehertz wrote:

Oh, and as for the ads, you know what, both my iPad and my Android phone have lots free apps with ads in them. If you want an ad-free experience, you need to chip in a few dollars to the developer. If you want people to develop apps for your products, you need to find a way to compensate them for the effort. As much as I love the Chumby, one major downside has been that there was never a way to attract sufficient interest from developers because apps generated no money for the developer. So unlike iPad apps, which have frequent updates, Chumby apps were rarely updated.

The thing is, you're already "Chipping in to the developer" when you buy Windows 8. Microsoft has no reason to include ads if you already pay $100+ for their "great" OS. If Windows 8 was free, I could understand it being ad-supported, but it's not.

Re: New computer Pt 2- OS?

Not quite. Most of the apps you are talking about with the ads are third party developer apps.

Re: New computer Pt 2- OS?

Ehertz, I don't think they're third party apps. Go into the weather application included in Windows 8. Or the news app, also included with Windows 8. Are there ads? Sure looks that way!

Re: New computer Pt 2- OS?

ehertz wrote:

For better or worse, the world is turning into a place where 16:9 screens are the norm, whether on a movie screen, my cell phone, iPad or the TV in my living room and companies like Microsoft are trying to figure out how to develop a consistent UI for all their products.

Ironic that you cite the iPad in that list of examples!  Most tablets are actually 4:3, with the iPad2 and iPad Mini being 1024x768, and the iPad w/ retina being 2048x1536.  Cheapo tablets at Big Lots are frequently 800x600. 

Simply put, you cannot develop a "consistent UI" for heterogeneous hardware, and attempting to pigeonhole users into using one particular type of hardware is just bad design. That applies to the issue of touchscreens too... until they can find a way to make desktop touchscreens not painful/fatiguing to use, this bald-faced attempt to push users into a technology that isn't ready for prime time is just... distasteful.

Re: New computer Pt 2- OS?

nathanm wrote:

Ehertz, I don't think they're third party apps. Go into the weather application included in Windows 8. Or the news app, also included with Windows 8. Are there ads? Sure looks that way!

Well, take a look at the opening page of Windows 8 App Store: http://windows.microsoft.com/is-IS/wind … pps#Cat=t1

Of the eight apps listed at the top under popular, seven are free, one is paid. In addition, only one app is published by Microsoft, the other seven are published by third parties. Here's the rundown:
Twitter - publisher: Twitter Inc.
Fotor - publisher: Chendu Everimaging Science and Technology Co Ltd
Spondle - publisher: Spondle
ESPN FC - publisher: ESPN
Cookbook - publisher: Slow Sense
Skype - publisher: Skype (which is owned by Microsoft)
Whip - publisher: ArcSoft, Inc.
Fruit Ninja - publisher: Halfbrick Studios Pty Ltd ($1.99)

Re: New computer Pt 2- OS?

Doktor Jones wrote:

Simply put, you cannot develop a "consistent UI" for heterogeneous hardware, and attempting to pigeonhole users into using one particular type of hardware is just bad design. That applies to the issue of touchscreens too... until they can find a way to make desktop touchscreens not painful/fatiguing to use, this bald-faced attempt to push users into a technology that isn't ready for prime time is just... distasteful.

You're right. The world is full of contradictions. The iPad's aspect ratio is 4:3, while the iPhone's is 16:9. Both use iOS as their operating system. Meanwhile, the Kindle Fire is 16:10, while the Samsung Galaxy Tab is also 16:10. On the other hand, the Nook HD's aspect ratio is 3:2.

Most laptops these days have 16:9 screens. This has been the case well before Windows 8 was released.

As I indicated earlier, touch works great for some things, but is horrible for others. What is worse, I've noticed that when two people get together, it is rare that both agree on what is the perfect way to do something.

Being a developer is hell.

Re: New computer Pt 2- OS?

ehertz wrote:
nathanm wrote:

Ehertz, I don't think they're third party apps. Go into the weather application included in Windows 8. Or the news app, also included with Windows 8. Are there ads? Sure looks that way!

Well, take a look at the opening page of Windows 8 App Store: http://windows.microsoft.com/is-IS/wind … pps#Cat=t1

Of the eight apps listed at the top under popular, seven are free, one is paid. In addition, only one app is published by Microsoft, the other seven are published by third parties. Here's the rundown:
Twitter - publisher: Twitter Inc.
Fotor - publisher: Chendu Everimaging Science and Technology Co Ltd
Spondle - publisher: Spondle
ESPN FC - publisher: ESPN
Cookbook - publisher: Slow Sense
Skype - publisher: Skype (which is owned by Microsoft)
Whip - publisher: ArcSoft, Inc.
Fruit Ninja - publisher: Halfbrick Studios Pty Ltd ($1.99)

I don't think you're understanding what I'm saying. I'm perfectly fine with third-party developers getting money from their free apps. However, the apps that Microsoft provides with the operating system such as the weather and news app have ads. This is a big problem, and one reason why I don't have anything running Windows 8 or an Xbox 360 (another ad-heavy system, this time on the main screen). Also, doesn't it mean that something's critically wrong with an operating system when the biggest proponent of a piece of technology recommends a third party app to fix something that Microsoft could have done itself? I think so.

Re: New computer Pt 2- OS?

I use Windows 8 on my desktop. Most of my use is in desktop mode, and Start8 (cheap at $5) really works well to restore the feel of Windows 7.  When I do use Windows 8 Store apps, they work well, but for my development work, they're not very common.  I do like some of the casual games, but most desktop gaming I do is indie bundle titles unlocked via Steam.

On my work laptop, I've got Windows 7, which is very familiar and works well.  On my personal laptop, I've got a Lenovo Yoga 13.  I really like the touch screen there, as the laptop screen tends to be in the touch-friendly zone, and the Yoga has great "tablet" and "stand up" modes.  However, I won't recommend the Yoga because the WiFi is terrible, terrible, terrible (I bought a $10 USB WiFI dongle to make the coverage usable), and the physical keyboard is very disappointing.  If I were buying again, I'd probably go touch screen again, but in a more traditional laptop form factor.

Re: New computer Pt 2- OS?

bobsz asked for thoughts on Windows8 based on his needs (i.e. Photoshop). We can debate endlessly on the merits of Microsoft's direction with their new OS. The question is what is best for one user. I would define "best" as what makes the user most comfortable and productive. If bobsz has stated in his opinion that Windows8 is "made for tablets and cloud computing" then that is valid for his needs. If that does not fit with your needs/experience that is fine. We all probably do things a little differently and have different needs.

I personally do not like the Metro interface but I don't use Windows much other than as a PVR with WMC or on the occasion when I need Adobe InDesign or Photoshop. 90% of my computing time is in Linux where I can change the UI to any of several depending on my mood. What troubles me more about Windows8 is Microsoft's move toward a closed "app store" like Apple. One of the great things about the Windows environment is/was that pretty much anyone could create any app they wanted to run on the platform. Microsoft is closing that door. Sure, you can still load most legacy applications today, but that may change with newer versions of Windows. I understand why. It will bring Microsoft more profit. It might even help with the malware problem.

Tar, feathers, congress. Some assembly required.