Topic: Chumby on a stick Redux

What if a USB memory stick was made available to purchase that would have the new service available on it?

A simple fix for the non technical and could make a few dollars for operations.

Just a thought.

Re: Chumby on a stick Redux

The only problem is zurk's offline firmware looks like it might not be entirely... "above board" in terms of licenses in a variety of ways.  While most of the involved parties probably aren't going to care for a community distribution (i.e. sharing on sourceforge), attempting to sell it commercially is a whole different ball of wax.

Re: Chumby on a stick Redux

a usb stick, coupled with the widget app store and cached widgets might be a solution.

You buy the widget stick.  They are mostly all on there.  Along with a stub boot that loads the new addresses to thye new servers.

Then only new se;ected widgets are downloaded to the widget stick.

Re: Chumby on a stick Redux

Here's what I'm going to do - once we're past the immediate crisis, I'll craft versions of the Control Panels for the chumby branded (CC, C1 and C8) devices that omit the support for licensed third party content - that means the removal of CBS Podcasts, IHR, Pandora, Internode (AU only), and SHOUTcast - and license the binaries under Creative Commons BY-NC-ND license.  I do not have the right to sublicense any rights of these third parties, so there's no point in asking.  I will retain support for "blue octy radio", so third parties are free to add stations as they wish.

This should be more than enough to allow people to legally make and distribute "offline mode" USB dongles until a full Open Source version of the Control Panel is available.

I will not relicense anything that's already under an Open Source license, such as scripts or middleware, so anyone that wants to redistribute those will be required to properly adhere to those licenses.

Re: Chumby on a stick Redux

Duane, I'm curious if you're planning to release any of the build infrastructure.

Specifically I mean the custom scripts I asked about a few years ago here:
http://forum.chumby.com/viewtopic.php?id=4351

I'd envision this as something we (the community) could use to quickly/easily build our own update.zip files to stick on USB sticks and update our chumby devices with custom changes we've made, but are very similar to the current builds.

Linux Guy - Occasional Chumby Hacker

Re: Chumby on a stick Redux

The chumby build server is *way* too messy to try to fix - it was deeply tied into Chumby's source control layout and was deeply contaminated with stuff hacked in for Sony, support for the rather convoluted deployment pipeline etc., and really, really wants to be on Chumbys internal network, which no longer exists.  It's not for the faint of heart.

If I knew I could engage the original guys that created it, then that would be a different story - sadly, they're all gainfully employed by people that keep them extremely busy.

I think the community would be best served to start with something like OE - we certainly would have used it if it had been as mature as it is now back when we started.

bunnie's group did a pretty good start - all it should need is maintenance.

Re: Chumby on a stick Redux

Duane wrote:

...that means the removal of CBS Podcasts...

May I make a request? Could you re-work one of the two existing podcast utilities so that removes the NYT or CBS branding, and adds a way to enter podcast RSS feeds, making it similar to My Streams?

I currently use the "CBS" podcasts to listen to dozens of podcasts via Zurk's firmware, and it works great for that.

See:
http://forum.chumby.com/viewtopic.php?id=8233

Re: Chumby on a stick Redux

I'll see what I can do.

Re: Chumby on a stick Redux

philhu wrote:

a usb stick, coupled with the widget app store and cached widgets might be a solution.

You buy the widget stick.  They are mostly all on there.  Along with a stub boot that loads the new addresses to the new servers.

Then only new selected widgets are downloaded to the widget stick.

This is what I was suggesting. I was not specifically saying to use Zurk's software but a "legitimate" version sanctioned by Duane and his new company.

This could help out with the cost of support. Long term, If anyone had problems there could be a log file that could be emailed to Duane. Most people could copy a file from a USB stick easier than having to ssh into the Chumby.

Re: Chumby on a stick Redux

infocastme wrote:
philhu wrote:

a usb stick, coupled with the widget app store and cached widgets might be a solution.

You buy the widget stick.  They are mostly all on there.  Along with a stub boot that loads the new addresses to the new servers.

Then only new selected widgets are downloaded to the widget stick.

This is what I was suggesting. I was not specifically saying to use Zurk's software but a "legitimate" version sanctioned by Duane and his new company.

This could help out with the cost of support. Long term, If anyone had problems there could be a log file that could be emailed to Duane. Most people could copy a file from a USB stick easier than having to ssh into the Chumby.

The problem as I see it is that no sort of "widget stick" could ever be legally acceptable; the original widget authors retain rights over their widgets, and to redistribute the widgets without their permission is not okay.

What might be interesting is if Duane could get some stats on which widgets seem to have the highest "popularity", if the current system offers any sort of metrics on that... then perhaps we could attempt to reach out to the authors of those widgets and see about relicensing them in a more relaxed manner, making a "widget stick" possible.

Re: Chumby on a stick Redux

Duane, when you say "This should be more than enough to allow people to legally make and distribute 'offline mode' USB dongles until a full Open Source version of the Control Panel is available," does this mean that the later, post-crisis, Open Source version will be released under a less restrictive CC license, like BY-NC-SA, or even BY-SA?

Re: Chumby on a stick Redux

My guess is that it would be a more conventional software license, like a GPL.

I picked the particular license to deliver what was requested without the burden of source disclosure, which I can't do at this time.

13 (edited by bobsz 2013-02-06 00:28:11)

Re: Chumby on a stick Redux

l don't think redistributing the widgets on a different medium like a USB stick would be unethical, especially in light of past practices. Long after many widgets were contributed, Chumby decided to distribute them via an Android app- to people who didn't even own Chumbys. Same situation with the Chumby TV and Sony Dash. When the early widgets were developed, nonone knew they'd later be "sold" to Sony, etc. also, if the Chumby ad model had worked, and those widgets would have been earning money, I doubt the authors would have expected a cut.

When we bought our Chumbys the widgets were an essential part of the device. The widget authors contributed their work to be used on our Chumbys. Even if distributed on a USB stick, they would still be for use by those Chumby owners. It does seem to me that Chumby-BlueOcty would be the appropriate one to distribute them.

If someone was taking Chumby widgets and selling them on some other kind of device, that would obviously be wrong. But a legitimate source distributing Chumby widgets to Chumby owners, via USB or online library or whatever, seems to make sense to me.
----------
EDIT- despite that long-winded position above, still think loading widgets from the server is the ideal way, in some form. Seems it would still be the easiest way to personalize widgets and channels and keep widgets updatd.

Re: Chumby on a stick Redux

bobsz,

Your argument makes complete sense. I wish the law did. Blue Octy is going to be a tiny company and cannot afford to incur even one lawsuit. It would shut everything down permanently. I think Duane is right to show caution.

Tar, feathers, congress. Some assembly required.

15 (edited by Doktor Jones 2013-02-06 06:14:48)

Re: Chumby on a stick Redux

[[moderator hat off, user hat on]]

Also, just because the old Chumby Industries corporation had already done something with the widgets does not (in my opinion) make it ethical for Blue Octy to go ahead and do it again.  Using "past practices" to justify continued behavior is not really a sound plan: "Well, my neighbor shot that pushy door-to-door salesman last year and the judge let him off when he claimed it was self defense... now these punk-ass kids that my son brought home are annoying the piss outta me and I can't get them outta here, so what's the harm in shooting them too?"

With regards to the Android app, are the widgets actually distributed in any different manner from a Chumby device?  AFAIK, the Android app uses the same Chumby servers, so the widgets remain centrally distributed and controlled; furthermore, I was of the understanding that when the servers go dark at the end of February, the Android app will suffer the same fate as Chumby devices.

Sony is a different story, and it does seem (from my limited perspective) that CI would have to have transferred the widgets themselves to a separate Sony repository if the Dash will be able to continue functioning normally after the Chumby servers go dark.  Again, I don't feel that this makes it right to continue to do things with the widgets that the authors may never have reasonably expected to be done with their product (namely, distributing it in a manner that removes the author's ability to update or withdraw the widget from general availability).

The program that was shared on the forums here that downloads any given set (or all) of the widgets for a user is a different beast in my book: the user is downloading a copy of the widget, and how they use that is their own thing.  A user could have simply run their Chumby with the widget, then pulled the sd card (or used SCP) and grabbed the widget off the Chumby; that program simply made the process a fair bit less painful, but did and does not facilitate distribution of the widget.  Now if the user grabbed all the widgets available using this program and shared their archive, I would consider that equally unethical.

As a user, I agree that it would be awesome if we could distribute a "widget stick" that would allow Chumbies to function without the centralized server, so all the folks out there who love their Chumbies but have no bleepin' clue what an "offline firmware" is could continue to use their beloved devices without much technical knowledge.  With my knowledge and experience of the software industry though, as well as my general sociopolitical beliefs, I believe the rights of the authors should be paramount, and any actions that might erode those rights should be considered very critically before proceeding.

Re: Chumby on a stick Redux

Thanks for the reality orientation. You guys are right, of course.

Re: Chumby on a stick Redux

Eh, I'd just rather do right than be right wink

Also, I'm not afraid to admit my opinions are indeed colored by my social and political beliefs.  I would like to believe though, that my social and political beliefs are moderate enough and sensible enough that most sane people can at least understand my reasoning behind them even if they don't quite agree.

Re: Chumby on a stick Redux

My small suggestion for going forward: whatever the means of getting widgets onto a Chumby (online or downloadable to a USB), anyone uploading new widgets should explicitly state their licensing. Not having the licensing leads to the impasse we find ourselves at currently.

I've put widgets on a thumb drive (for my own personal use only) without getting permission of the original widget creators, and I don't feel I'm doing those creators any real damage, nor do I think I've done anything unethical. In the future, if I want to make the Chumby USB drive version of a mix-tape of my favorite widgets, it would be nice to be able to do so without peeving anyone.

Re: Chumby on a stick Redux

Doktor Jones wrote:

As far as license termination, it specifically says "this license will terminate when you remove your Application using the process described in Section 4.2 and it is no longer available via the chumby Network" -- since technically the authors haven't done that, it wouldn't necessarily terminate the license.

I would agree. This clause explains how the widget author can terminate the license. The part about being no longer available via the network relates to the consequence of the author using the process described in Section 4.2. It is not a separate, alternative condition that triggers termination of the license. If it was, then every time the servers went down and the widgets were unavailable, then all widget licenses would have terminated.

Doktor Jones wrote:


Also, since the Blue Octy network is the logical successor to the Chumby network, if the widgets continued to be made available there, that might cover the latter part of it.

Exactly. It seems that Blue Octy is more than the logical successor to Chumby, it's the legal successor to at least part of it and, as such, legally holds whatever Chumby rights Duane acquired.

Doktor Jones wrote:

Then again, if we're trying to be totally ethical, this clause gives the author the impression that they have the ability to remove their widget, and to take that away is impolite at best and possibly lawsuit-inducing at worst if a widget author gets a bug up their arse about it.

Definitely. More than an impression, I'd say, taken in conjunction with Section 4.2, it gives the author the unequivocal right to remove their widget (ie to have ultimate control over its distribution and use, in that if they didn't like what Chumby was doing with it, they could take it away).
I think this would be the big problem in trying to get widget authors to agree to free offline distribution. Under the Chumby model the widget sat on a Chumby server and was distributed to Chumby devices. This process was relatively transparent (in the sense of who had control over the widget and where it went, so please don't anyone (you know who I'm talking about) start up about open source vs closed source again, that's not what I'm discussing here) and could be terminated by the author at will. Although it was possible to copy the widgets, as we've seen from the zurkware, in practice there would seem to have been little incentive to actually do so. In addition, the Chumby platform provided for feedback from users, so there was a benefit for the authors in that they could use Chumby to hone their skills and try out new ideas.
Under the pure offline model, the widget is released into the wild, never to be seen nor heard from again, and in a readily copyable form. I think this would be unacceptable to many authors.

Re: Chumby on a stick Redux

Here's my current plan for handling this.

By default, the widget author's rights remain exactly the same as before - they can upload, update and remove widgets at their whim, and there are no redistribution rights for folks wanting to distribute collections.

I will add the ability for the author to grant *additional* rights on an individual widget basis, including the right of redistribution.  The author would have to understand that if they choose to grant the right of redistribution that they can't change their minds later and expect me to chase down and destroy all copies of the widget out there, and that any altered rights would apply only on a forward going basis.

These rights would be informative, not something that I would, or could enforce.  As the copyright holder of the widget, it would be their responsibility.

I would also add the ability for authors to provide a link to some external host (Github, Sourceforge, Google Code etc.)  if they want to share their widget source code and other resources, if they've granted the appropriate rights.

This way, those of you that want source or redistribution rights can go make your case to the actual authors instead of expecting that I'll somehow hack the current license, which I have absolutely no inclination to do.

A somewhat related anecdote:

At one point, we had some very vocal folks demanding that *we* needed to host a widget source system for the authors, and how that was critical to our survival and we were very, very bad people for not providing it, we smell bad, we suck, etc, etc..  We put one up (a full GForge), even offering to give complete control to these very folks - nobody stepped up, everyone that was asking for it suddenly skittered away, and no one used it, so we shut it down about a year later. There are so many people that like to tell people how to run things but when confronted with doing something themselves, just run away.

Re: Chumby on a stick Redux

Duane wrote:

At one point, we had some very vocal folks demanding that *we* needed to host a widget source system for the authors, and how that was critical to our survival and we were very, very bad people for not providing it, we smell bad, we suck, etc, etc..  We put one up (a full GForge), even offering to give complete control to these very folks - nobody stepped up, everyone that was asking for it suddenly skittered away, and no one used it, so we shut it down about a year later. There are so many people that like to tell people how to run things but when confronted with doing something themselves, just run away.

I remember seeing the GForge and I think I even had an account on it.  If I don't remember these people calling you stinky for not providing it does that mean it was me?  tongue

Again, it was probably something ahead of it's time similar to people having a hard time grasping the chumby concept of "apps" (widgets) before iphones.  Back then most open source things used sourceforge and now there's things like Google Code, GitHub, and the like.

Linux Guy - Occasional Chumby Hacker

Re: Chumby on a stick Redux

Duane wrote:

Here's what I'm going to do - once we're past the immediate crisis, I'll craft versions of the Control Panels for the chumby branded (CC, C1 and C8) devices that omit the support for licensed third party content - that means the removal of CBS Podcasts, IHR, Pandora, Internode (AU only), and SHOUTcast - and license the binaries under Creative Commons BY-NC-ND license.  I do not have the right to sublicense any rights of these third parties, so there's no point in asking.  I will retain support for "blue octy radio", so third parties are free to add stations as they wish.

Simon Hackett (former owner of Internode) is a genuinely nice guy. If you want I'm willing to follow up with him and see what he is willing to make available.

Duane wrote:

This should be more than enough to allow people to legally make and distribute "offline mode" USB dongles until a full Open Source version of the Control Panel is available.

I will not relicense anything that's already under an Open Source license, such as scripts or middleware, so anyone that wants to redistribute those will be required to properly adhere to those licenses.

Open source is excellent news. It is also re-assuring that you actually appreciate the need to license code properly to give the community a firm foundation.

I'm keen to see the open source releases start as quickly as possible as this provides re-assurance. Are there any core parts of the Chumby software (e.g. device drivers) that are proprietary?

Re: Chumby on a stick Redux

Duane wrote:

By default, the widget author's rights remain exactly the same as before - they can upload, update and remove widgets at their whim, and there are no redistribution rights for folks wanting to distribute collections.

I will add the ability for the author to grant *additional* rights on an individual widget basis, including the right of redistribution.  The author would have to understand that if they choose to grant the right of redistribution that they can't change their minds later and expect me to chase down and destroy all copies of the widget out there, and that any altered rights would apply only on a forward going basis.

I think this is a good approach.

Duane wrote:

I would also add the ability for authors to provide a link to some external host (Github, Sourceforge, Google Code etc.)  if they want to share their widget source code and other resources, if they've granted the appropriate rights.

This way, those of you that want source or redistribution rights can go make your case to the actual authors instead of expecting that I'll somehow hack the current license, which I have absolutely no inclination to do.

Great idea. I doubt that anyone will make money from chumby widgets which means that logically open source makes sense.

Re: Chumby on a stick Redux

Man, I've been in your shoes. "Build it and they will come" is only true for Baseball movies.

And I'm not going to bitch about it, my useage settled down to something _just_ more than an alarmclock. I enjoyed waking to Absolute Radio (London), and I had a couple of weather widgets, and that was about it.

something like http://m.weather.com/mapcenter_local/80134 _might_ be adequate, but 320x200 is a pretty darned small viewport.