Topic: Flash - Academic Licensing and Widget Creation

If I use Flash with an academic license, am I able to create and share Flash content over the chumby network?

If, for example, I am a teenager that wants to share a widget with a friend....or if I would like my animation to be included in the free widgets subscription list?

I think teachers and students will often use their institution's version of the software to produce content.

What are the rules?

Re: Flash - Academic Licensing and Widget Creation

I'd have to check but I think sharing these widgets is no problem. As long as you don't start selling them, it should be alright, I think. I'll double check and let you know when I have confirmation.

Re: Flash - Academic Licensing and Widget Creation

shoudnt see why not. after all, it is your code. you wrote it.

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Re: Flash - Academic Licensing and Widget Creation

Hmm...but I'm interested in what the Chumbian's legal team think about this one. If someone tries to sell them a widget (Assuming they are going to buy great widgets to onsell to subscribers???),  how will the Chumby company know if it has been created with a commercially licensed copy of Flash or by a college student in the library? Is there a way to tell? Is this just an issue for the developer?

Feel free to delete me if I am asking sticky questions...people regularly tell me that curiosity killed the cat!

Meow =ˆvˆ=

Re: Flash - Academic Licensing and Widget Creation

well the student could just send the source code, and then the chumbians can compile it themselves.

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Re: Flash - Academic Licensing and Widget Creation

Angela wrote:

"how will the Chumby company know if it has been created with a commercially licensed copy of Flash or by a college student in the library? Is there a way to tell? Is this just an issue for the developer?"

Shouldn't be an issue, nor should it be an issue if it's created by an open source flash tool, and there really isn't a good way of telling what created the SWF file. The licensing of the file doesn't change based on the tool used to create the file, the licensing changes based on the creator's whim to change it. However, your school/university might not like you using their software to create a commercial product (in which case you'd have to buy your own copy of Flash 8), and that'd be the only problem I could imagine coming out of this (and it's likely they wouldn't even know, as most schools don't really keep very close eye on who's using their software to make what).

Re: Flash - Academic Licensing and Widget Creation

That's kinda what I suspected...I've always wondered about this.

So why don't all the professional Flash developers buy the academically-licensed Flash8 professional for 25% of the price? Are they relying on customer honesty or does Adobe go around checking on people? If they don't check what is the point of multiple licenses in the first place? Are they relying on retailers to check student cards for this to work?

How do they check if people are using pirated versions? I guess copies can't register and get updates...but...?

Just for everyone's reference, I'm asking purely to satisfy my own curiosity on how the software world works rather than the intention to use Flash in contravention to Adobe's licensing requirements.

It can be a little confusing as to what Australian universities' computer usage policies will be from week to week...not much would surprise me.

8 (edited by chedabob 2006-09-27 05:21:10)

Re: Flash - Academic Licensing and Widget Creation

as far as i know, adobe cant check what version you have. ive got friends who run questionable versions, and theyve been getting updates for years.

i shouldnt see why you couldnt. best thing would be to ask adobe. ill get onto it.

EDIT: sent an email to adobe, you guys should have an answer by tomorrow. hopefully.

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Re: Flash - Academic Licensing and Widget Creation

chedabob...you realise I am being hypothetical/theoretical here, right? I appreciate your input though.

Just after a better understanding of how the economies of software are working/how licensing protections are working/how open source fits with all this. And therefore where chumby and  it's Flash developers fit into the legal landscape...

(On a professional level, I need to figure out my exact position regarding copyright/IP/licensing/open source models etc...the landscape is changing quite quickly...international laws regarding DRM, for example...how the Australian laws map against US laws...I work with people that have very strong opinions regarding these matters and need to be able to participate in these conversations. So I figure, the more I know the better...and I have a relatively knowledgable group of people to ask here.)

I don't think it is appropriate to post anything in the forum regarding how to circumvent Adobe's licensing and I hope these posts aren't perceived this way. If people feel we are treading on inappropriate ground I would be happy to delete this thread.

Chumby has a corporate relationship to maintain with Adobe, as do some Flash developers in this forum, and this deserves due respect while we are on their forum.

Re: Flash - Academic Licensing and Widget Creation

i wasnt saying anything about circumventing adobes protection. i asked adobe if you are allowed to distribute stuff created with an educational license, for a profit, or if you cant, could you give it to somebody else with a full license to do it for you.

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Re: Flash - Academic Licensing and Widget Creation

Angela wrote:

So why don't all the professional Flash developers buy the academically-licensed Flash8 professional for 25% of the price? Are they relying on customer honesty or does Adobe go around checking on people? If they don't check what is the point of multiple licenses in the first place? Are they relying on retailers to check student cards for this to work? How do they check if people are using pirated versions?

Well, to buy the academic version, you're supposed to show proof that you're in academia, in the form of a student ID or something of the like, and most retailers are very strict about checking as all of the boxes for the software are labeled "MUST HAVE STUDENT ID" on them, at least in America. I don't believe Adobe would waste very much energy actually tracking down people using the same software for school as work, but if you were to personally be audited by the IRS (US Internal Revenue Service), for example, and found to be using academically licensed software, that could end up being a pretty big legal problem.

Software licensing on a whole is mostly based on the good of people to follow them. Of course, there will always be people that pirate software, either because they can't afford the software, the thrill of the hack, or because they're simply too cheap to pay the few bucks most software titles cost. That's lead some companies to using activation schemes where the software reports back to the company to register itself, but this is actually not very common (and only Microsoft Windows and a few Adobe products and a few other very high end professional software applications do this). Sometimes software also comes with a dongle you have to plug into your computer to verify you actually bought the software (but you only see this with hugely high-end applications, for example 3D Studio Max used to use a licensing system like this).

But in the end, if you're a teacher, using academically licensed software to create teaching materials, I don't see it as much of a problem. I don't think any of Adobe's licenses infringes on your right to commercialize anything made with any of their software, such as selling a flash-based game or Chumby widget, but your own version of the IRS might not like it if you have a side-business using the same license (though you could probably argue it either way). Giving them away for free would be completely fine though.

Re: Flash - Academic Licensing and Widget Creation

Thanks for your considered response to this! Much appreciated.

I actually thought having an academic license meant that you could only create material for non-commercial purposes. I'll check on this again.

I thought that teachers can create materials for students within the institution that holds an academic site license to use but again not for commercial/external purposes.

Teachers in Australia understand that the employer holds copyright to anything created within normal working hours/with their software. Seeing most teachers work at home until late at night producing learning materials on their home computers as well it is all a bit silly IMHO...also software companies provide educational licensing to schools that allows teachers to install a copy of MSOffice, for example, on their home computer...further complicating the issue.

Adobe has student id's copied and asks the retailers to show the ids to them otherwise they don't get to continue stocking Adobe academic products. Apparently, Microsoft Australia no longer checks, although retail stores still follow an in-store checking policy (or not). This info is coming from a store clerk I chatted to a while ago.

I wonder who audits this stuff with self-employed individuals/small business in Australia? I know there is a body that arrives unannounced to audit software use in schools. Will suss this out for my own interest.

Re: Flash - Academic Licensing and Widget Creation

possibly, if you used the academic license, and you were in breach of license, you could possibly sell the first few widgets, then buy the full version with the money made. its a grey area. most of us seem to have access to the academic version, so it makes sense to use it.

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Re: Flash - Academic Licensing and Widget Creation

chedabob wrote:

possibly, if you used the academic license, and you were in breach of license, you could possibly sell the first few widgets, then buy the full version with the money made. its a grey area. most of us seem to have access to the academic version, so it makes sense to use it.

As I understand the laws, it's not actually that you'd be in breach of the license, it's that the license wouldn't technically be owned by you in the first place. Purchasing it under an academic license means that you're purchasing it as a part of the school that you're at, and technically, the school would own the work (meaning that any money you earned would actually be the school's money). However, it's usually something most people overlook, including the schools themselves, and this issue hasn't ever been a very big one as far as I remember (I know for a fact that a great deal of people I know have released software they've developed as a student on academically licensed IDEs and compilers, and started a company to sell them professionally, although usually they'll buy the software themselves at the same time they start the company so that in the case of one of those nasty audits or for other tax purposes that they're completely in the clear).

In the end, it's not a problem, it's hardly worth arguing the legal side of it. I'm sure you could probably hunt down a case of a school suing a student for using academic software to make a company product, but you'd probably have to be a lawyer to do so (as most of us don't have access to legal case databases, and Google's not going to be the greatest resource for information like this).

Re: Flash - Academic Licensing and Widget Creation

awalton wrote:

As I understand the laws, it's not actually that you'd be in breach of the license, it's that the license wouldn't technically be owned by you in the first place. Purchasing it under an academic license means that you're purchasing it as a part of the school that you're at,

That's an interesting take on it. In my mind there are two types of academic license, one for individuals (like when you buy boxed software from a shop, therefore I *thought* I owned the license (?)) and an academic site license that you use when use the software installed on an institution's network (which we don't directly pay for, in Aust. at least).

awalton wrote:

this issue hasn't ever been a very big one as far as I remember

yeah...til I brought it up *lol*...I don't think it's a huge issue either but still wondering if Chumby has a policy on this  or if the onus is purely on the developer to comply?

Funnily enough, I do have access and skills to search the legal databases...but I'm not *that* obsessed with this...that and at the slightest exposure to legalese my eyes have a tendency to glaze and roll back in my head... roll

-a   (ˆOˆ)

Re: Flash - Academic Licensing and Widget Creation

We're not in the business of policing other people's software licenses - the burden is on the licensee of the software the follow the terms of the license they've agreed to.

However, we will abide by the terms of the Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA) and take down content if presented with a valid take down request.

Re: Flash - Academic Licensing and Widget Creation

Thank you for the clear cut response, Duane... that's what we needed...

Re: Flash - Academic Licensing and Widget Creation

how about, you get people to pre-order the widget, and if there is the demand for it, then use the pre-order money to buy a proper license? its a crazy idea, but at least its legal.

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Re: Flash - Academic Licensing and Widget Creation

well, adobe closed the case and didnt bother to reply. so i sent em another email, with exactly the same thing. god damn they are so ignorant.

Im currently helping out with the development of Chumby, a flash based bedside alarm clock, and a lot of people are unsure about the
icense agreements for educational versions of Flash. A lot of the team have access to educational versions, but they are unsure as
to whether they can commercially sell the software that they create. Are they allowed to do this? If they cant, are they allowed to
send the project file to somebody with a non-educational license to compile?

theres nothing in there could potentially be illegal, im just asking, so as not to get into trouble.

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Re: Flash - Academic Licensing and Widget Creation

It important when you send emails like this to Adobe that you're not implying that it's an official correspondence from Chumby Industries.  I'm a little worried that your use of the word "team" might lead them to think that you are part of the company itself.

Can somebody with the academic version of the license post the portion that is allegedly a problem?

Re: Flash - Academic Licensing and Widget Creation

^^

my bad, im just not very good at emails. it seemed the easiest way to word it.

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Re: Flash - Academic Licensing and Widget Creation

The Flash8 Professional EULA is on the Adobe website (no permalink).

It is very clear.

In section 3 - Licensing Restrictions it states:

(f)    Education Versions may not be used for, or distributed to any party for, any commercial purpose.

This appears to be the penalty if you do use it for commercial purposes:

3. (m) In the event that you fail to comply with this EULA, Macromedia may terminate the license and you must destroy all copies of the Software (with all other rights of both parties and all other provisions of this EULA surviving any such termination).

I couldn't see anything else related to penalties in the EULA

On Adobe's piracy pages there was this...later in the page they seem to equate copyright infringement with unauthorized use (ie failure to comply with a license)...

What are the maximum criminal penalties for copyright infringement?
In the U.S., an infringer could be fined up to $250,000 and face a jail term of up to five years.

Do people actually go to jail for copyright infringement?
Yes, they do.

For companies that don't obey the license requirements.... I imagine the penalties would be similar for self-employed developers if they are not appropriately licensed.

What are the penalties for having more software programs loaded onto company computers than the company has licenses?

Although the circumstances are different, having too few licenses is treated by the law in much the same way as having no licenses. Under federal copyright law, the infringing user may be liable for up to US$150,000 for each software program infringed. The law also permits the software publisher to recover court costs and attorneys' fees it spends to sue the infringer and to destroy all the illegal software found at the company. In cases of willful piracy, criminal penalties may also be assessed against the company. Link

They define using academically licensed products for commercial purposes as end-user piracy.

End-user piracy

Many people are unknowingly guilty of end-user piracy. For instance, when company employees make copies of software or share an installation CD without buying new licenses, this would be end-user piracy. Without the right license in place, you are not operating within the law. Furthermore, you are ineligible for support, training, or upgrades.

Here are some examples of how end-user piracy can happen:

    * Using one licensed copy to install a program on multiple computers or servers
    * Copying disks for installation and distribution
    * Acquiring academic or other restricted software to use for an unqualified purpose
    * Swapping disks inside or outside of the workplace

Anyone else for developing OpenSource solutions for Chumby?

Re: Flash - Academic Licensing and Widget Creation

it doesnt say that you cant design it on an academic version, and get someone with the pro version to compile it for you. if need be i spose you could get somebody onboard to sell the stuff for you.

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Re: Flash - Academic Licensing and Widget Creation

The gist of it is that if you haven't paid for full Flash Basic/Professional license then you (as a freelance developer) would be engaging in piracy/unauthorized use if you accept money for the product you have created with the software. You can't profit from stuff created with an academic license.

Therefore...going back to my original thought...Chumby Industries will probably have a lot of what Adobe sees as "pirates" trying to sell them widgets or sharing widgets through their network. (You might call them students with massive student debts living in share housing who are just trying to earn a buck on the side...but it's Adobe's IP to do with what it chooses). As a little fish Chumby can't afford to be Adobe's Napster (breathe Duane! - I know it doesn't quite equate...the onus is firmly on the licensee...but look what a mess YouTube could face soon).

Linux/OpenOffice approximates Microsoft/MSWord today. Why not put as many brains as possible into developing an open source Flash, specifically to make FlashLite content for chumby and other wireless devices? This would have huge impact in less developed countries that have cell phones but not computers. Why don't Chumby develop it along with the Chumby developer community so *everyone* can participate in widget creation without having to fork out great wads of cash to a company that seems to enjoy scaring the pants off its users? Then it would be more like YouTube (but with a less scary future) which ain't a bad thing...just my 2 cents.

Steve did say he would be a more benevolent leader than Mao.

Re: Flash - Academic Licensing and Widget Creation

openoffice was written from the ground up,with its own format. making opensource flash would mean knowing how the flash file is structured. sort of like how the openoffice guys know how .doc works, but a lot more complicated.


why are we using flash though? it limits us greatly. there are other languages that are way more open. perl,python,ruby, c, c++. nearly all programming languages have open compilers, so why use something as closed as flash?

just a quick thought. im not sure if openlaszlo has a restriction on commercial applications. thats a possible path.

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