Topic: Chumby.com sucks. For no good reason.

Hi

Let me start by saying I love chumby. This is why I am writing this post. Bunny was my TA at school. I want to say 002, but I am not sure. As a freshman, I rushed his frat and got to meet him there. I've occasionally followed the hacking he's done on his blog over the years. I'm excited to see this new company and--from the bottom of my heart--I want to see it succeed.

I've started two companies on the web-community side that have both been acquired, so I like to think I can provide some insight in this area.

Business Model.
Consumer Electronics is a brutally tough business. The Samsungs and Nokias of the world dominate by producing low-cost products w/ good enough quality. As a small company your only hope is to get government support, get acquired, or be in such a disruptive space that by the time they see you its too late.

Chumby as a product is not "disruptive".

Chumby+Chumby.com, a strong community of developers and hackers IS.

However, I have had my chumby for 1+ years now and I have seen the community angle given lipservice at best but with no serious support.

And its a shame, b/c without a great website where the dev and user community can flourish, you will be run over by a large consumer company who will ship a chumby at lower cost. The community and the userbase creating software is your "moat" against the Samsungs of the world, and you are essentially making it REALLY HARD for those of us that want to be in the community to be part of it.

I know you guys are probably mostly hardware people, but you need to focus on the website part to rapidly develop out your community if you want to survive. Bring in some solid web guys to make that happen, and get out of their way!

Here are some quick things I see that can be improved.
0. support some sort of HTML based widget using webkit or something.  99% of your potential devs know web stuff. very very few know flash. It'll probably increase the number of widgets that get made by quadruple. if there is one thing you can do to get better apps, it is probably this. i even tried to learn flash to write a chumby widget but i don't want to pay adobe, and I had second thoughts about learning another language that was essentially being abandoned by adobe as we speak.

1. single sign on between the forums and chumby.com
    seriously guys. just implement facebook login or openID or something. it is just ridiculous that you don't have single sign on. You are essentially telling us you don't want a community. I can't tell what you're using to run chumby.com from looking at the headers, but the URL structure makes me suspect you are using ruby on rails. Here is a nice article that might help: http://punbb.informer.com/forums/topic/ … -on-rails/

2. make the forum headerbar more like the chumby.com headerbar
    nothing fancy. just cut and paste that html here. I press that logo and I'm never quite sure if thats going to get me to the forum homepage or the chumby.com homepage. it is inconsistent. for example, the chumbywiki logo goes to the chumbywiki page whereas this one goes to the chumby.com page.

3. in fact, think about just building out a dead simple forum yourself on chumby.com
    its not hard, there aren't too many features and it'll let you extend it to further support the community. for example, you could have profile pages for devs or users. we can make friends w/ each other and people can show off their widgets and chumby setups.

4. let people share code. THere is no place where people can upload the code and open it up for folks who want to modify it and upload a slightly tweaked widget. if you do that, maybe even a boneheaded person like me could even contribute!

5. integrating the wiki would be nice too, but forums are definitely a must have.

6. think about doing dev contests  to build the coolest apps.

7. think about doing a user contest - best use of da chumby. or best chumby setup.

thats all I have. in general, please invest more in the community and let us help you succeed.

Re: Chumby.com sucks. For no good reason.

I was about to come back to you with a 'there is a place to share code' rebuttal (http://gforge.chumby.com) but when I tried to go there, it's no longer online. Oh well, I was prepared to share code there, but it seems not enough others were for it to be worth continuing. In fairness to Chumby Industries, they have set up at least two systems in the past for developers to share code - loads of people shouted for it, but then when it (they ?) was made available no one (or not many) wanted to actually use it.

Re: Chumby.com sucks. For no good reason.

i like those ideas.

4 (edited by cbreeze 2009-06-28 15:22:11)

Re: Chumby.com sucks. For no good reason.

Wow - though I find the title a little harsh, I would have to mostly agree that there is something seriously wrong, but I think it goes beyond the website.

Where's the news?  What's been going on?  What's with the network, new devices, etc.?  I can't believe for a second that nothing has been happening.  And if so, well I assume that's not good news, or perhaps whatever was needed from the "free" developers has been fullfilled and there is no need for us anymore (speculating folks).  Oh, and no I don't really want to follow you on Twitter - I don't do Twitter - I do Chumby.  I want to come to the website and feel like I am involved in something, whether wearing my developer cap, or my Chumby fanatic one.  (You may want to update the featured developer as well smile).

I personally don't think that "merging" the web systems together is really going to change any of that.  The problem is communication.  There is little, if any, outside of Duane helping people on the forums - which I assume he likes to do, but doesn't seem like something he should "have" to do.

I agree that another method of getting widgets on the Chumby would be a very good idea as well.  Of course I am partial to Flash, but I would like to see more depth, and variety.  I also think that the device is too "locked" down.  Yes, there are "baddies" out there.  But at least have some type of program for legitimate developers to push the hardware and functionality to the fullest.  There needs to be a system in place to reward good and dedicated developers if there is going to be no inherit ability to generate revenue.

The contests seem like a no-brainer.  It's not my place to speculate on Chumby business practices, but I know they do/did have funding, and even without a monetary reward, a free Chumby could have been enough to get people to really put some effort in.

Yeah - I used the word "been".  Unless there is some dramatic announcement, the bus has left in my opinion.  The widget output has been a trickle at best.  In the past Steve has mentioned that the device was a means to an end.  Well where is that end?  And does it include any of us developers?  The people who put the 1000+ widgets on the device to help give volume to the "network".

As I have stated before in the forums, if the idea is to become a "network", you're really going to need to invest (yes, money) in people who can do that for you.  And I don't mean just program - but come up with original compelling content.  I don't see that being a cheap or simple task.  If every television network played the same show, we would only need one station.

Another thing that has me very concerned is the amount of stories I get from Chumbyland users regarding the fact that without Chumbyland, the Chumby would have lived the rest of its days in a closet, or some other form of "burial".  I suppose this should be a compliment, but it worries me more than anything else.

Maintaining the Chumbyland community is insane (and I absolutely love it smile) - there needs to be something similar in place for Chumby.  A community manager who can deal with more than just developer issues - and keep the site "alive".  I had offered to take on some type of role like that last year, but I suppose it wasn't in the cards.  But you should seriously consider someone who can do that for you.  Someone who is not wrapped up in code or hardware, but just a plain site-wide Chumby cheerleader (and no, I don't see Duane with a set of pom poms, shouting "give me a C", cutting it tongue).  And I also don't mean on a weekly or monthly basis, but everyday.

--

As far as some of the other items pointed out:

GForge - though it is down now, even when it was running it took quite a while to get things approved.  I lost my excitement pretty quickly and moved on.  Personally I think there isn't enough of a developer population to sustain it.  There probably never was in the first place.  But Chumby did the right thing by trying to do good by developers.  The people who were hammering for it should have been able to see this from the start.

Dev pages - there are "profile" pages but they don't offer much.  I have been asked if I have video, assets, etc. for a profile page.  I never provided any, so I assume the same is true for most others as well.  That is probably why they are not prominent.

Single log in - It certainly would make life nice, but it probably takes about .5 seconds to tap in my credentials.  Just sayin' smile.

--

In conclusion...I conclude that I don't actually have one tongue.  Everything that I think currently is pure speculation.  It's about time for the Chumby folks to give us a real update on the state of things.

And as a final note, I have nothing but love for the Chumby and the people involved.  Users and developers alike.  I think the 1000's of hours that have been put into maintaining the Chumbyland community should be proof enough of that.  I only wish for longevity and success in the Chumby universe, in whatever form that may be.

If there is anything I can personally do to help in whatever manner, let me know.

Cheers.
cbreeze (develephant)

Re: Chumby.com sucks. For no good reason.

It's kind of sad to hear that the communication on the site isn't that great. I've had the Chumby for about a week and personally love it, but I'm sort of an oddity on this site because I'm not a developer or hacker. No, I'm just a gadget enthusiast and needed a good alarm clock/digital frame/internet radio, and chumby was the perfect device for that.

Here are some random thoughts and observations I have:

I WISH I could get involved in the community more besides just sticking to chumbyland or the forums. I try to help out by reviewing wigets that do come in. I could see the chumby having MORE widgets that focus on communication. Maybe have a widget that has you customize it via your own interests and pairs you up with people with like interests. Maybe then you can trade messages with each other. It's just a thought. (I know Chumbyland sort of does this, this is just another option). I want to meet and find more chums!

I was also going to show off my chumby via a picture, took one, and was all set to send it in, but the email provided on the website no longer exists.

Another option is allowing non-developers to beta test widgets that are coming out. I'd LOVE to do this, as it's my way of helping the community since I can't hack/do flash, but there's no way to do so. The only exception is to beta the control panel. I want to do more.

And this may be me not knowing a lot about linux overall, (enough to follow directions and install stuff, but not enough to encode) but I feel the USB ports aren't being used to their full potential. Sure, they're useful for music, powering up my itouch, and installing things, but could more be done? I've heard people talk about using Java and how potentially large it is. I could see making an easy to install java program on a USB dongle, which a chumby user can install by choice. This would open up widget development for sure (I only mention the dongle aspect because I read somewhere that Java is too big to put in Chumby's internal storage). I guess I'm saying...make Java more user friendly and available. If that makes any sense.

These are just suggestions, really. I don't see the whole 'Chumby's bus has left the building!' argument, because a lot of good widgets came out from the time I ordered the Chumby until now (Zoltar ftw!), but you can make an awesome product even better!

Re: Chumby.com sucks. For no good reason.

quizengine wrote:

I was about to come back to you with a 'there is a place to share code' rebuttal (http://gforge.chumby.com) but when I tried to go there, it's no longer online. Oh well, I was prepared to share code there, but it seems not enough others were for it to be worth continuing. In fairness to Chumby Industries, they have set up at least two systems in the past for developers to share code - loads of people shouted for it, but then when it (they ?) was made available no one (or not many) wanted to actually use it.

i have fixed the issue with gforge.chumby.com. 

/mdkail

Re: Chumby.com sucks. For no good reason.

There are a bunch of great suggestions here and we will be discussing them and seeing what more we can do.  I definitely agree that the site can use some work and we've discussing how to prioritize doing just that.  Our focus for most of this year has been on 2 things: (1) engineering our company to survive these challenging economic times -- frankly, longevity is the best service we can possibly provide our customers and our developers; and, 2.) working on some really big projects with some really big partners and that we're unfortunately contractually prevented from discussing.  Beyond longevity, we presume that our developer community wants to see the installed base of devices continue to grow, hopefully dramatically.  Our ongoing international expansion, the big partners we're working with, and the new products we're working on (but don't worry, nothing that will make you love your chumby any less!) will provide our developer community and our content partners with the large audience that makes the whole chumby ecosystem worthwhile.  Small companies are challenged, especially in these times of controlled spending and limited headcounts, in what we can do simultaneously -- very often we have to run the old college football play, "student body left," and put everyone on a particular project, or small set of projects, at the expense of other items on our to-do list.  But we really will look for ways that we can make our developers' lives easier, because the assertion that they are chumby's competitive advantage is absolutely correct.

Re: Chumby.com sucks. For no good reason.

The code repository issue is a bit of a sore subject for me.

I went to bat not once, but *twice*, of behalf of the rather vocal segment of the "community" to put up a community-supported source repository only to have all of the folks that advocated the most loudly suddenly vanish once it was made live.

cbreeze, I'm sorry that project approvals have been slow, however, we openly offered to allow members of the community be involved with that process and nobody stepped up.  For some reason, I wasn't getting email notifications, and I logged in to see what was up and approved the handful of projects that had accumulated.

At this point, I feel like a complete fool for advocating internally on this issue.

Re: Chumby.com sucks. For no good reason.

Lucca wrote:

I've heard people talk about using Java and how potentially large it is. I could see making an easy to install java program on a USB dongle, which a chumby user can install by choice. This would open up widget development for sure (I only mention the dongle aspect because I read somewhere that Java is too big to put in Chumby's internal storage). I guess I'm saying...make Java more user friendly and available. If that makes any sense.

A very complete Java dongle image is available here - scroll down to the end for the download.  I've also included a Java compiler, so that you can even build Java applications on the chumby itself.  If someone doesn't like how I built the image, I've even posted instructions for how to make it oneself.

I've supplied several languages and tools that can be used to create software for the chumby, often on the chumby itself, mostly at the request of developers that say they want them, however, nobody seems to actually use them.

You don't even need Adobe's tools to create Flash widgets any more - I've ported most Open Source Flash development tools to the chumby for this dongle.

Re: Chumby.com sucks. For no good reason.

A good idea for how more people that don't know flash could make something for the chumby easily:

Canvas. You could make the chumby's screen like a canvas and have a way to upload the javascript canvas code instead of a .swf to chumby and it is pretty much the same as flash. Chumby would only need to interpret the javascript functions that have to do with the canvas.

Canvas: https://developer.mozilla.org/en/HTML/canvas

Re: Chumby.com sucks. For no good reason.

Well, presumably, you'd also eventually want audio, video, animation, embedded fonts, quality development tools, small memory and storage footprint, security sandbox, and encapsulation - and what you end up doing is simply reinventing Flash.

For all of the alleged standardization of other widget systems around HTML/XML/Javascript, the truth is they're all mutually incompatible and require substantial documentation to create the most basic of widgets.  In most cases, you're restricted to a few supported media types (particularly in embedded systems), you're stuck with the fonts supplied on the system, and the resulting widgets are often very large relative to their Flash equivalents.

For instance - take one of our simplest widgets, the Digital Clock.  This widget is 1650 bytes, and the source is available.  Recreate it in HTML/Javascript for Webkit and post how big it ends up.

Re: Chumby.com sucks. For no good reason.

Thanks for all the updates!  I assumed the added stress of the economy is probably a huge factor for you all right now.

@Duane - I certainly wasn't meaning to knock the "forge" work, if that's how it came across. smile

Lucca wrote:

Maybe have a widget that has you customize it via your own interests and pairs you up with people with like interests.

Excuse the shameless plug, but the upcoming version of Chumbyland has more options like this.  And if you would like to be on the beta team - please let me know.  smile

Looking forward to the future.

Cheers.

Re: Chumby.com sucks. For no good reason.

cbreeze wrote:

Thanks for all the updates!  I assumed the added stress of the economy is probably a huge factor for you all right now.

@Duane - I certainly wasn't meaning to knock the "forge" work, if that's how it came across. smile

Lucca wrote:

Maybe have a widget that has you customize it via your own interests and pairs you up with people with like interests.

Excuse the shameless plug, but the upcoming version of Chumbyland has more options like this.  And if you would like to be on the beta team - please let me know.  smile

Looking forward to the future.

Cheers.

Ooh, that sounds awesome. I'd love to help!

Also, thanks Duane for all the java advice and help. I'll definitely look into it.

Re: Chumby.com sucks. For no good reason.

One thing about single sign-on that I think warrants discussion - one problem with it is that if your credentials are compromised in one place, then they're compromised everywhere.

Given that we run a lot of third-party software for which we haven't run complete security audits (such as this forum), then does it really make sense to have all of your security riding on the quality of the weakest link?  In other words, if this forum software has a bug, then should your credit card details in the store potentially be in jeopardy?

This issue isn't isolated to chumby - in fact, the recent general trend is to move *away* from single sign-on in many high-profile hacking targets for this very reason.  Some online game companies now actually *want* you to use completely different credentials on their forums from the ones used by the games themselves so that actual game accounts don't get hijacked.

There are some possible solutions to these issues - using trusted authentication services and using systems such as oauth to manage credentials in a manner that reduces exposure.  Then, of course, your systems become slaves to a third-party, and unfortunately, there have been several high-profile incidents where such centralized services have failed for some period, disabling otherwise unaffiliated sites.

Then, of course, there's  the matter of trust with the central authority - that's what doomed Microsoft Passport.  Sites and users simply didn't want to trust them as a central authentication authority.  And trust comes in many forms - Facebook seems generally trustworthy (though Beacon raised a few eyebrows), but appears to burn through $200M a year, and that train runs out of steam at *some* point - I'd hate to lose all of our users' ability to log in if/when that happens.

As far as having a common header/navigation UI across the various sites, that's reasonable, though it's *far* more complicated than simply cutting and pasting HTML.  Chumby is currently expanding globally, and working with various partners to present customized, branded versions of the site for various products.  That means this stuff is increasingly dynamic, and sensitive at any given moment to lot of variables.

There's also an overall code management issue - when your upstream provider supplies a new version of the software, you need to now repatch it with your modifications and regress it to make sure you haven't broken anything.  In our current deployments of the forum and wiki, they're run more-or-less in stock condition, which makes us far less sensitive to version incompatibilities with patches.  Since going live, we've updated the forum and wiki several times each, with virtually no downtime.

As cbreeze (aka develephant) noted, the effort to create accounts on these services takes very little additional time, and personally, I think the firewalling of these systems has security advantages that I feel outweigh convenience.  One thing that's interesting is that our early users, who were often hackers, when to some effort to create custom credentials for each service, some with customized email addresses - probably to try to catch us in privacy violations or whatnot.  Hackers in general are very suspicious of centralize authentication services.

Please feel free to comment and/or disagree - we're open on this issue.

Re: Chumby.com sucks. For no good reason.

chumbofan wrote:

Let me start by saying I love chumby.

thanks, that wasn't obvious based upon your choice of language in the subject.

However, I have had my chumby for 1+ years now and I have seen the community angle given lipservice at best but with no serious support.

what i've seen is a lot of people who ask for things, then, when presented with such a solution [i.e. gforge.chumby.com], they disappear.

1. single sign on between the forums and chumby.com
    seriously guys. just implement facebook login or openID or something. it is just ridiculous that you don't have single sign on. You are essentially telling us you don't want a community.

i disagree.  i don't think that having to have 2 or 3 distinct logins is prohibiting community building.   also not sure i want to trust access to my systems to openid.

if you want a great password manager and run OS X, check out:  http://agilewebsolutions.com/products/1Password


2. make the forum headerbar more like the chumby.com headerbar
    nothing fancy. just cut and paste that html here. I press that logo and I'm never quite sure if thats going to get me to the forum homepage or the chumby.com homepage. it is inconsistent. for example, the chumbywiki logo goes to the chumbywiki page whereas this one goes to the chumby.com page.

not really sure what doing that would buy anyone?  if you mouse-over the logo you can see that it redirects to www.chumby.com and there are links near the
top for the wiki, site, and even st's blog.

4. let people share code. THere is no place where people can upload the code and open it up for folks who want to modify it and upload a slightly tweaked widget. if you do that, maybe even a boneheaded person like me could even contribute!

very much a sore subject with me.  i built it and heard crickets chirping [along with a few developers who have used it]

in general, please invest more in the community and let us help you succeed.

i do agree that we can, and need to, do more in this area.  we're working on it.

/mdkail

Re: Chumby.com sucks. For no good reason.

Duane wrote:

For instance - take one of our simplest widgets, the Digital Clock.  This widget is 1650 bytes, and the source is available.  Recreate it in HTML/Javascript for Webkit and post how big it ends up.

It is 3796 bytes when i compressed it. I am new to javascript so it is probably not that efficient. To try it, you have to include it in a page with "<canvas id="canvas" width="320" height="240"></canvas>". It does everything the other one does. Here is a screenshot in firefox: http://www.flickr.com/photos/33883927@N04/3681549901/ Here is the script uncompressed:

var canvas = document.getElementById('canvas');
if (canvas.getContext) {
  var ctx = canvas.getContext('2d');
  //colonStatus = if the colon is visible
  var colonStatus = false;
  //segPos = positions of segments in a digit. 0=x,1=y.
  var segPos = [[-1,-12,13,0,-13,12,-2],[-29,-15,-18,0,13,16,29]];
  //neededsegs = segments needed to build digit or letter (1-9,a,p,-)
  var neededSegs = [[0,1,2,4,5,6],[2,5],[0,2,3,4,6],[0,2,3,5,6],[1,2,3,5],[0,1,3,5,6],[0,1,3,4,5,6],[0,2,5],[0,1,2,3,4,5,6],[0,1,2,3,5,6],[0,1,2,3,4,5],[0,1,2,3,4],[3]];
  //hourmode = current mode (12/24). true = 12, false = 24.
  var hourMode = true;
  function changeMode() {
    if (hourMode == true) hourMode = false;
    else hourMode = true;
  }
  function clearCanvas() {
    ctx.fillStyle = 'rgb(153,153,102)';
    ctx.fillRect(0,0,320,240);
    ctx.fillStyle = '#000000';
  } clearCanvas();
  function drawSegment(segment,x,y) {
    ctx.beginPath();
    if (segment == 0) {
      ctx.moveTo(x+15,y-5);
      ctx.lineTo(x+8,y+5);
      ctx.lineTo(x-4,y+5);
      ctx.lineTo(x-15,y-2);
      ctx.lineTo(x-15,y-1.7);
      ctx.lineTo(x-14.8,y-2.2);
      ctx.lineTo(x-14.6,y-2.7);
      ctx.lineTo(x-14.3,y-3.2);
      ctx.lineTo(x-14,y-3.6);
      ctx.lineTo(x-13.8,y-3.8);
      ctx.lineTo(x-13.2,y-4.3);
      ctx.lineTo(x-12.5,y-4.7);
      ctx.lineTo(x-11,y-5);
      ctx.closePath();
    } else if (segment == 1) {
      ctx.moveTo(x-4.2,y-14);
      ctx.lineTo(x+5,y-8.5);
      ctx.lineTo(x+4.5,y+8.6);
      ctx.lineTo(x-2.5,y+14);
      ctx.lineTo(x-5,y+11.8);
      ctx.closePath();
    } else if (segment == 2) {
      ctx.moveTo(x-4.4,y-5.2);
      ctx.lineTo(x+3.3,y-16);
      ctx.lineTo(x+4,y-15.6);
      ctx.lineTo(x+4.7,y-15);
      ctx.lineTo(x+5.2,y-14.4);
      ctx.lineTo(x+5.6,y-13.7);
      ctx.lineTo(x+5.8,y-13);
      ctx.lineTo(x+6,y-12.2);
      ctx.lineTo(x+5.1,y+13.3);
      ctx.lineTo(x+1.3,y+16);
      ctx.lineTo(x-5,y+10.9);
      ctx.closePath();
    } else if (segment == 3) {
      ctx.moveTo(x-13,y-.7);
      ctx.lineTo(x-7,y-5);
      ctx.lineTo(x+7.5,y-5);
      ctx.lineTo(x+13,y-.5);
      ctx.lineTo(x+6.8,y+4);
      ctx.lineTo(x-7.3,y+4);
      ctx.closePath();
    } else if(segment == 4) {
      ctx.moveTo(x-1.7,y-13);
      ctx.lineTo(x+5,y-7.3);
      ctx.lineTo(x+4.5,y+9.8);
      ctx.lineTo(x-5,y+13);
      ctx.lineTo(x-4.2,y-11);
      ctx.closePath();
    } else if (segment == 5) {
      ctx.moveTo(x+1.7,y-16);
      ctx.lineTo(x+5,y-13);
      ctx.lineTo(x+4.3,y+13.7);
      ctx.lineTo(x+3,y+16.5);
      ctx.lineTo(x+2.6,y+16.8);
      ctx.lineTo(x-5,y+7.2);
      ctx.lineTo(x-4.4,y-11.2);
      ctx.closePath();
    } else if (segment == 6) {
      ctx.moveTo(x+7.6,y-5);
      ctx.lineTo(x+15,y+3.8);
      ctx.lineTo(x-12.1,y+4);
      ctx.lineTo(x-13,y+4);
      ctx.lineTo(x-14.3,y+3.3);
      ctx.lineTo(x-15.2,y+2.5);
      ctx.lineTo(x-15.6,y+1.8);
      ctx.lineTo(x-15.9,y+1.8);
      ctx.lineTo(x-16,y+.4);
      ctx.lineTo(x-15.9,y-1.7);
      ctx.lineTo(x-6,y-5);
      ctx.closePath();
    }
    ctx.fill();
  }
  function drawDigit(digit,x,y) {
    var len = neededSegs[digit].length;
    var segment;
    for (var i=0;i<=len;i++) {
      segment = neededSegs[digit][i];
      drawSegment(segment,x+segPos[0][segment],y+segPos[1][segment]);
    }
  }
  function getDigits(number) {
    var tens = 0;
    while (number >= 10) {
      number -= 10;
      tens++;
    }
    //returns the digits of the two-digit number.
    return [tens,number];
  }
  getDigits(76);
  function setTime() {
    clearCanvas();
    //colon
    if (colonStatus == false) {
      ctx.beginPath();
      ctx.arc(141, 97, 4, 0, Math.PI * 2, false);
      ctx.arc(139, 117, 4, 0, Math.PI * 2, false);
      ctx.fill();
      colonStatus = true;
    } else {
      ctx.fillStyle = 'rgb(153,153,102)';
      ctx.fillRect(134,92,12,30);
      ctx.fillStyle = '#000000';
      colonStatus = false;
    }
    //time
    var d = new Date();
    var h = d.getHours();
    if (hourMode == true) {
      ctx.scale(.4,.4);
      if (h > 12) {
        h -= 12;
        drawDigit(11,486,164);
      } else {
        drawDigit(10,607.5,205);
      }
      ctx.scale(2.5,2.5);
    }
    var hours = getDigits(h);
    if (hours[0] != 0) { drawDigit(hours[0],74,103); }
    drawDigit(hours[1],114,103);
    var minutes = getDigits(d.getMinutes());
    drawDigit(minutes[0],168,103);
    drawDigit(minutes[1],208,103);
    ctx.scale(.4,.4);
    var seconds = getDigits(d.getSeconds());
    drawDigit(seconds[0],592.5,310);
    drawDigit(seconds[1],637.5,310);
    var month = getDigits(d.getMonth());
    if (month[0] != 0) { drawDigit(month[0],200,402.5); }
    drawDigit(month[1],245,402.5);
    var day = getDigits(d.getDate());
    drawDigit(day[0],330,402.5);
    drawDigit(day[1],375,402.5);
    var year = getDigits(d.getFullYear());
    year[0] = getDigits(year[0])[1];
    drawDigit(year[0],460,402.5);
    drawDigit(year[1],505,402.5);
    //draw hyphens in date
    drawDigit(12,287.5,402.5);
    drawDigit(12,417.5,402.5);
    ctx.scale(2.5,2.5);
  }
  setTime();
  setInterval(setTime,500); //must be 500 for colon
  canvas.addEventListener('click',changeMode,false);
  [(-5),{0:5}];
} else { alert('Error: browser doesn\'t support canvas'); }

Re: Chumby.com sucks. For no good reason.

Ha, ha - touché.

Nice work!

Perhaps I should have used a better example smile

Re: Chumby.com sucks. For no good reason.

mdkail wrote:

not really sure what doing that would buy anyone?  if you mouse-over the logo you can see that it redirects to www.chumby.com and there are links near the top for the wiki, site, and even st's blog.

Yes, but most people don't look to see where it redirects to. All it does is make a UI element behave more predictably.

Re: Chumby.com sucks. For no good reason.

I just wanted to throw in my two cents:

I've been watching the Chumby since it first came out several years ago.  As a technology enthusiast I want to support useful products and companies that create open platforms using open source technology.

However, the thing that has prevented me from investing $200 in one of these devices is the Flash limitation.  I've read most of Duane's posts on the topic and it's clear that he won't be persuaded from his 'Flash only' stance.  However I am confident that the success of the Chumby and the platform it's built on will be judged like any other platform:

  * To get users, you need content/applications/widgets (Whatever you want to call the developed work)
  * To get content/applications/widgets you need developers.
  * To get developers you need an easy/familiar development environment.

Because the Chumby is largely 'web based', it makes sense to those of us who would not only like to use the Chumby as a consumer appliance but who would also like to develop content for it, that a 'web based' device support HTML.

Now I realize that the developers of the Chumby have been trumpeting Flash's superior feature set for memory footprint, but such things are irrelevant when you consider the goal is to get content for users to use.  There is content out there already created in HTML which could easily be reformatted with some basic CSS and display perfectly fine on the Chumby.  But what you're telling me is that I need to recreate my content using Flash?  You're not going to get a lot of developers that way.

I'm sure that Flash is better suited for the Chumby.  But consider this:  I have a Palm Pre.  It cost me $150 ($50 less than the Chumby), it uses Linux as it's OS, it has an ARM 500 Mhz CPU (Similiar to the ARM in the Chumby), and ALL of the apps on this phone are written in HTML 5 and Javascript.  It can easily handle running many apps simultaneously.  If the guys at Palm can build all this into a touchscreen device that fits in the palm of my hand, then the Chumby should be able to handle it.

Blackberry's can handle HTML and Javascript, iPhone's can handle HTML and Javascript.  There are tons of flip-phones that can handle HTML and JavaScript, so why is it that a set-top device that plugs into AC power which is an order of magnitude larger than these smart phone can not handle HTML or JavaScript?

For me, I want to use the Chumby in the kitchen.  I have a recipe database that I built as a web application.  I used to use this application with my old Blackberry, and today I use my phone.  However it would be a lot more convenient if I could have a Chumby sitting on the kitchen counter with access to my recipe web app.  Once I can do this I would happily buy a Chumby.

-Jeremy

Re: Chumby.com sucks. For no good reason.

Duane and other chumby official people,

I understand you are tired and exhausted by users' endless complaint, and you have much to say why a chumby is a chumby in current way, however please don't try to negotiate or persuade customers, because you can't.

Duane wrote:

I went to bat not once, but *twice*, of behalf of the rather vocal segment of the "community" to put up a community-supported source repository only to have all of the folks that advocated the most loudly suddenly vanish once it was made live.

As a chumby fan and an IT engineer like you, please let me say this.
They didn't vanish, but they left, becuase their problem was not solved.
Please don't think their demand was a fake, but ask yourself if it wasn't another "faster horse" of Henry Ford.

In my personal opinion, chumby.com needs an official Yahoo-Pipes-like service (don't have to be so rich, but more flash-developer friendly and authentification supported), because crossdomain mess is a compensation for chumby's good security and Yahoo Pipes is not made for that. (I'm sorry, if it's *another* "faster horse" complaint.)

And Duane, you work too hard, seriously.

Re: Chumby.com sucks. For no good reason.

In my personal opinion, chumby.com needs an official Yahoo-Pipes-like service (don't have to be so rich, but more flash-developer friendly and authentification supported), because crossdomain mess is a compensation for chumby's good security and Yahoo Pipes is not made for that. (I'm sorry, if it's *another* "faster horse" complaint.)

At the risk of "persuading" or "negotiating"...

The problem there is that we simply can't be in the business of proxying the entire Internet on behalf of chumby devices. The amount of traffic generated *by* widgets dwarfs the size of the widgets themselves by several orders of magnitude - and we'd have to eat both the upstream *and* the downstream bandwidth.   The math simply doesn't hold up - we'd be out of business in a a matter of days.

Re: Chumby.com sucks. For no good reason.

Thank you for the response.

Duane wrote:

The problem there is that we simply can't be in the business of proxying the entire Internet on behalf of chumby devices. The amount of traffic generated *by* widgets dwarfs the size of the widgets themselves by several orders of magnitude - and we'd have to eat both the upstream *and* the downstream bandwidth.   The math simply doesn't hold up - we'd be out of business in a a matter of days.

I totally agree with you, but I am afraid it is also a reason why I feel uncomfortable developing a
widgets depending on Yahoo Pipes. If it's a such burden, can we expect Yahoo or other outer commercial or individual proxies to carry it when chumby users increase more and more? (And yes, I think Chumby One is very hopeful.)

Anyway, if it's only a matter of traffic, can't you just start from closed-beta? You can restrict widgets by API keys, limits target sites starting from ten or twenty major RSS sites, cache them on server for minutes. You may think about extending the service after killer application is created.

Of course, it might be another deserted project and I would be a only one to use it (I don't think it will happen), or too many people apply for it and complain about it anyway(this is more likely).
Either way, I think it is not meaningless for you to show us how do you recognize current security/usability balance of your service, and do you have a will to do something about it sometime in the future. It will be very relieving for widget developers including me.

23 (edited by cbreeze 2009-10-15 15:40:21)

Re: Chumby.com sucks. For no good reason.

Hi kanawha.st,

I am not entirely clear on what you are asking for.  I have many widgets that I need to proxy data for.  This is rather trivial to do in a PHP environment (and I am sure most other languages).  I'm pretty sure you can even find free hosting that may allow you to accomplish these things.  Yahoo Pipes is more effort in my opinion then wrapping up a quick PHP script.

The following is a general statement (and not directed toward you personally).  Any of the things that developers think chumby should provide (and I have been one of them at times) are most likely freely available, can be implemented (work required), and in the long run will allow much more flexibility in application development.

If you don't want to rely on Yahoo Pipes, then don't.  Find an alternative solution to the issue.  That's what programmers do, right?  The fact is chumby industries makes little, if any, money after the device is shipped.  The forge is a great example.  There is a cost involved in setting that up.  When no one comes to the party, it's time and money wasted in the wrong spot.  I personally wouldn't want to get burned again either.

I have been developing on chumby for a little over a year.  I certainly don't make any money doing it, but outside of the minimal frustrations I have, the fact is I've been pretty free to do whatever I wish and they have been very supportive of that.  Whether inside the chumby or not.  And that's something you can't program or create a service for, and is quite rare for most companies.

Anyone who is buying a chumby to do development work should take the time to understand what the limitations are, and what minimal knowledge will be needed to develop on the device.  Purchasing a chumby does not mean you *have* to develop for it, and I believe that most owners don't.  If that is something you want to do then by all means "kick it up a notch" - but developing a widget is optional, and is not included in the price.

If anyone out there is a starting developer, and has any questions, feel free to ask.  I am more than willing to help or point someone in the right direction.  Don't be afraid to ask questions.  And don't be afraid to answer them either.  We all benefit.

And for the record, these are my personal opinions, and not those of chumby industries (at least that I'm aware of).

Good luck.

Cheers.

Re: Chumby.com sucks. For no good reason.

Hello cbreez:

I am glad to hear from such a good widget maker as you.

cbreeze wrote:

I am not entirely clear on what you are asking for.

I just thought it might be great if many flash designers out there would participate in chumby developers.
For me, creating a widget is a fun, writing PHP is OK, but establishing and maintaining proxy server for chumby users is a bit too much.
I'm afraid most of flash designers think the same way, because, in my impression, there are not very many people who can do both writing actionscript and server management like you.
(And, 'design' is very important part of chumby, isn't it? Chumby widgets are destined to be a part of a scene).
I also think practical and useful widgets (such as your gmail reader) should not rely on individual server if chumby is meant to be a popular equipment, no matter whether it is official or user created.

cbreeze wrote:

Purchasing a chumby does not mean you *have* to develop for it, and I believe that most owners don't.  If that is something you want to do then by all means "kick it up a notch" - but developing a widget is optional, and is not included in the price.

You may be right, I may be wishing too much, but I am not so sure about developing a widget is optional.
When I first met chumby, I got an impression that it is not just a hardware, but it is more like a service trying to realize a greater vision; "small but always-open window to the internet".
If my impression was right, user created widgets may be a main part of chumby's service, and opening
a door to more developers may benefit both developers and chumby industries. (Who would buy an iPhone without App Store?)

Ah... Am I saying this to such a good contributor like you?
Please excuse me if I sound too rude, but please understand that I want chumby to be a popular gadget like iPod so that I can recommend it to non-geek friends.
And I apologize, I should not have continued this stimulatingly titled post, but I could not ignore the gravity, you know.

Re: Chumby.com sucks. For no good reason.

A couple of comments:

What cbreeze is doing on his (wonderful) GMail widget is not affected by the security sandbox for the chumby - the issue there is that he's using the IMAP protocol, which is not supported by Actionscript 2.  The server component is essential to present the data in a form that's consumable by Flash.  Should the chumby someday support an Actionscript 3 VM, *then* we'll talk about network security for that smile

Flash developers are already confronted by the "crossdomain" issue on *everything* they develop Flash movies for - websites, other devices, etc.  It's very unlikely any Flash developers would be shocked to discover this on the chumby.  Java applet developers, Microsoft Silverlight developers, even HTML/Javascript developers have precisely the same issues.  Flash on Android will have it, too, and every other phone that supports Flash, the PS3, the Wii, etc.  The chumby is not a less capable/more restrictive platform - it's the *same* as everything other platform that has a network security sandbox, and every other implementation of Flash.  Without it, your LAN is compromised, and your firewalls are worthless.

Pity the poor Flash-on-iPhone folks - they can't even use loadMovie()!