26 (edited by Cecilia 2008-06-12 09:46:51)

Re: My clock conundrum.

Duane wrote:

It is pretty clear that *other* people describe the device as a clock, but I'm not sure how it's our responsibility to respond to that.

Also, as far as your "responsibility"--I've said this several times before in this thread, I don't necessarily think it's your "responsibility."

I posted this thread--appropriately entitled "*MY* clock conundrum" in a forum category called "Product Suggestions."  The thread is NOT entitled "Chumby sucks because it doesn't do what I want".

The category doesn't read "Things Chumby fails to do properly," nor does it read "Demands from our users."

By having this category, I would assume that the Chumby people are looking for feedback from end users, of which I am one.  This is an issue I came up against, I made a "product suggestion" and now I'm feeling the need to defend my suggestion to the death, which is stupid.

If the category is "Product Suggestions from Tinkerers and Developers Only, Real life end users need not apply," then kindly change the title of the category.

Vice President of Duane's Chumby Buddies Inc, Pro-Clock faction                       Clocks are life; we all expire sometime.
http://forum.chumby.com/viewtopic.php?id=2565

Re: My clock conundrum.

The chumby CAN be a clock, but that's not it's best feature.  For someone looking for an always visible clock then this is not the droid you're looking for...

That said, I've sprinkled extra clock widgets in-between my other widgets.  I generally find having more than three widgets in a row keeps it too long before the clock has been shown.  I'd like to have a feature that let me set this automatically, but for now I can live with just adding them on my own.

I do like the idea of using the chumby as a clock, often more at certain times of the day than others.  Here's a feature you may not be aware of.  It's possible to set an "alarm" that changes which channel the chumby is using.  It's also possible to switch the chumby into night more (or take it out) at certain times.

Now my chumby kicks over to a channel with more clocks around quitting time.  Then it switches over to night mode around 7pm.  At 7 the next morning it starts showing it's regular widget channel again.  This is a great feature, one you might want to try.

Re: My clock conundrum.

Right, it says "Clocks and Alarms", right after "In your life", just before "Music", "Weather", "Photo Viewing", "Social Networking", "News and Entertainment", "Sports", "Auctions", "Videos", "Games", "Messaging", and "Surprise".  The animation switches from section to section automatically.  It's not even the first item - and I'm not seeing anything that would imply that the time is always visible.

Is your contention that simply because the little "Clocks and Alarms" graphic is initially in the center of the screen, that the chumby is primarily a clock?

If so, I guess we should consider changing the order of the items.

I want to make it clear that we *are* listening - if we weren't, I wouldn't even be responding to this thread.  There is some actual work in this area - but I want to try to understand what the expectations are for such a feature.

For instance, should this "always on" clock be visible from across the room? If so, then you can pretty much kiss off the usefulness of widgets, and you'd be much better off just adding your favorite clock widgets.  If it's too small, then why have it at all?  Where should it go?  Upper left, lower left, centered?  Does the persistent clock also show when the widgets show the time?  How would it know?

29 (edited by Cecilia 2008-06-12 16:36:47)

Re: My clock conundrum.

wkearney99 wrote:

The chumby CAN be a clock, but that's not it's best feature.  For someone looking for an always visible clock then this is not the droid you're looking for...

My setup is not much different than yours.

The issue, as I stated in my first post in this thread, is that I would like to be able to glance at Chumby at any particular point in time and see what time it is.

Please read my first post again for more detail.

BEST FEATURE as you say it, is an OPINION.  My opinion is that its best feature is as a pimped-out clock radio.  If you can have your opinion, then I can have mine.

Now, in answer to your statement above, if THIS is not the droid I'm looking for (hey, I love that "droid"!), tell me which one is.

My requirements: separate alarms configurable to days of the week and different alarm sources, internet radio streams, ipod alarm, AND a viewable clock.  Bonus is things like weather, dogs licking screens, games, news, horoscopes, but these are not requirements.

There isn't a whole hell of a lot out there like this (yet).  At least ones I've not tried.  So if you know something I don't, please come clean.

Vice President of Duane's Chumby Buddies Inc, Pro-Clock faction                       Clocks are life; we all expire sometime.
http://forum.chumby.com/viewtopic.php?id=2565

Re: My clock conundrum.

wkearney99 wrote:
Cecilia wrote:

If the category is "Product Suggestions from Tinkerers and Developers Only, Real life end users need not apply," then kindly change the title of the category.

Or is there a need for a forum just for snarky comments from exasperated users that don't like how others reply?  Heh.

I believe there is.  However, if you bother to read the thread, the thing is that I didn't get snarky until I was BLATANTLY insulted.

Vice President of Duane's Chumby Buddies Inc, Pro-Clock faction                       Clocks are life; we all expire sometime.
http://forum.chumby.com/viewtopic.php?id=2565

31 (edited by wkearney99 2008-06-12 09:18:08)

Re: My clock conundrum.

Cecilia wrote:

tell me which one is.

TELL you?  You've obviously got an overblown sense of privilege going on here.  Nobody's here to TELL you anything.  Some folks are willing to share their observations.  It's a community, not your own personal support service.  Startups are kinda like that.

Cecilia wrote:

I believe there is.  However, if you bother to read the thread, the thing is that I didn't get snarky until I was BLATANTLY insulted.

Well, having come to the thread late in the game, and having read through it, I'd say you're exaggerating.  Both on the nature of replies on the thread and your expectations of the device vs it's reality. 

The chumby not just a clock, and at first blush if that's someone's expectation then it will probably fail miserably.  Like any new device it has a learning curve.  You may find that curve too steep or the effort beyond wasting your time.  The rest of us, however, continue to be delighted with what we find when using a chumby.  YMMV, as the saying goes.

Re: My clock conundrum.

Duane wrote:

Right, it says "Clocks and Alarms", right after "In your life", just before "Music", "Weather", "Photo Viewing", "Social Networking", "News and Entertainment", "Sports", "Auctions", "Videos", "Games", "Messaging", and "Surprise".  The animation switches from section to section automatically.  It's not even the first item - and I'm not seeing anything that would imply that the time is always visible.

Is your contention that simply because the little "Clocks and Alarms" graphic is initially in the center of the screen, that the chumby is primarily a clock?

If so, I guess we should consider changing the order of the items.

I want to make it clear that we *are* listening - if we weren't, I wouldn't even be responding to this thread.  There is some actual work in this area - but I want to try to understand what the expectations are for such a feature.

I'm SO done here.  I feel anything I write is absolutely pointless.  Apparently even Duane is not reading what I wrote to HIM, stating that I know he's listening and that I totally appreciate it.

And I know that Duane is possibly the nicest person in the world.  Because he DOES respond.

But, because I thrive on pointlessness...

I did not say that the Chumby is primarily a clock.

I said *I* bought Chumby to be primarily an alarm clock, because that is what I needed and wanted at the time, and because it fulfilled *most* of the requirements of what I was looking for at the time.

I also said that "Clocks and Alarms" is right smack dab in the middle of the page, making it a front and center advertisement for what I was looking for at the time.


Okay, no more stupid frustration for me.  I'm back to teaching people how to send emails from Outlook.

Vice President of Duane's Chumby Buddies Inc, Pro-Clock faction                       Clocks are life; we all expire sometime.
http://forum.chumby.com/viewtopic.php?id=2565

33 (edited by Cecilia 2008-06-12 16:37:55)

Re: My clock conundrum.

wkearney99 wrote:
Cecilia wrote:

Now, in answer to your statement above, if THIS is not the droid I'm looking for (hey, I love that "droid"!), tell me which one is.

TELL you?  You've obviously got an overblown sense of privilege going on here.  Nobody's here to TELL you anything.

heh.

you say you know that there is something, but you refuse to share that information, under the guise that you think that *I* think I have an overblown sense of privilege.

talk about snarky.  and an overblown need to withhold information to stay in control.

what a joke.

Vice President of Duane's Chumby Buddies Inc, Pro-Clock faction                       Clocks are life; we all expire sometime.
http://forum.chumby.com/viewtopic.php?id=2565

Re: My clock conundrum.

Please don't go away mad - please give me more details on what you'd expect to see on the screen, how you'd use it, and how you think it should work with the existing widgets.  Simple sketches would help.

Several people have said they want a clock on the screen all the time - unfortunately, the devil's in the details, and personally, I haven't seen a solution that doesn't suck aesthetically or require that we abandon all of the previous widgets.

Re: My clock conundrum.

I even said nice things about Duane on my survey. THAT'S WHY I'M GOING TO WIN THE T-Shirt! Either that, or get MY touch screen back! :-)

C I survived the tornados. Mess in Kansas. Check your email.

36 (edited by Cecilia 2008-06-12 09:56:47)

Re: My clock conundrum.

heyartlady wrote:

I even said nice things about Duane on my survey. THAT'S WHY I'M GOING TO WIN THE T-Shirt! Either that, or get MY touch screen back! :-)

C I survived the tornados. Mess in Kansas. Check your email.

Wholly crap!  You were serious about the tornadoes?  I hope you and yours are all well!!! :-/  Checking email now....

I think you're a clear winner if you get either one of those.  But even better would be winning a T-shirt autographed by Duane.

Vice President of Duane's Chumby Buddies Inc, Pro-Clock faction                       Clocks are life; we all expire sometime.
http://forum.chumby.com/viewtopic.php?id=2565

37 (edited by Cecilia 2008-06-14 16:59:43)

Re: My clock conundrum.

Duane wrote:

please give me more details on what you'd expect to see on the screen, how you'd use it, and how you think it should work with the existing widgets.  Simple sketches would help.

Several people have said they want a clock on the screen all the time - unfortunately, the devil's in the details, and personally, I haven't seen a solution that doesn't suck aesthetically or require that we abandon all of the previous widgets.

Okay, picture this (hang in with me, it's just an idea):

In the control panel, with the channels, when the user creates a channel, there is an option that says something like "Clock View" with a Yes/No checkbox--default it to No/False.

If your channel has this option set to No (the default), Chumby stays as it is, widgets work full screen, people who hate clocks are happy.

If the channel has the Clock View option set to Yes, then a small portion of the screen at the top, perhaps 1/4", is blocked off for a small date and time in a strong color contrasting to the background. (This involves no overlay.  I have some ideas that could make this more aesthetically pleasing but they're not posted in this thread.)  Yes, the information will be small, but at least it will be there, and the user has the option to squint or pick up Chumby and pull it closer (in a loving embrace wink.  An example is the "header" on NY Times widgets which reserve 1/4" to show that Chumby is displaying the NY Times.

Any widgets shown on a channel that has Clock View set to Yes have:

Possibility 1:  The widget is shrunken proportionately (approx 1/4") to allow space for the Time Bar.  Upon moving out of Clock View with a single tap (see below) the widget would expand to fill the screen and cover the Time Bar so that it can no longer be seen.

Possibility 2: The widget "slides down" the screen so that it appears to have moved down out of the way for the Time Bar.  Since in Clock View the widget is functionally disabled, the screen can be manipulated separately, a touch and slide action would allow the user to slide the widget around the screen to see different parts of the widget (kinda like in Paint shop pro where you can select an area and move it around in the view).  When the user moves out of clock view with a single tap (see description below), the widget would slide back into place and the Time Bar would go away.

Using either of these choices, the following actions are possible:

A tap of the widget portion of the screen moves Chumby back to Widget View, then for THIS WIDGET ONLY (referred to as Temporary Widget View) the Time Bar disappears and all the functioning of the widget is available.  The widget either moves into place or expands to its full size.  Upon moving in sequence to the next Widget, the Time Bar reappears and Chumby returns to Clock View.

A tap of the Time Bar area brings up a menu of three choices:

1 Widget View: automagically puts Chumby back into Widget view (and therefore removes the time bar and puts the current widget into full view as described above) for the duration of the current channel.  The view would then be reset when a new channel is chosen from the control panel or when an event triggers a new channel, at which time the channel will play using its default mode/view from when it was set up

2 Select Widget: displays a text only list of widgets from the current channel (or text with a TINY graphic representation of the widget, similar to the NY Times widgets which lists news articles with a small graphic and a right-hand scroll bar).  Selecting a widget would put Chumby in Temporary Widget View.  When the Chumby changes to the next widget, Chumby goes back to Clock View

3 Select Channel: Which displays a text only list of channels.  Selecting a channel will put Chumby in whatever mode/view the channel is defaulted to.

The contents of the Time bar: Day of the week initial (M T W H F Sa Su) followed by the Time (ie. M 8:45am), and the next alarm to go off (a: T 5:45am), which, while the alarm is being snoozed, would change to a countdown (s: minutes:seconds) of the snooze.  If space allows, the full date might be displayed.

Using the Widget resizing suggested in possibility 1 above: the side bar might show the name of the current widget, or perhaps provide a place for rating the widget.  Alternately, if the widget is centered horizontally so that there is white space on both sides, tapping the left or right Side Bar space would cycle through the widgets that are in the current channel, while remaining in Clock View.

So the end result for the user is that they get to easily choose to customize Chumby as an alarm clock, or not, and each option is independent of the other, leaves full access to all widgets, and provides a nice little menu system to more easily see more widgets.  Widget developers should like a system that allows users to get to their widgets easier, either through the menu system or a quick, instantaneous "tap to widget", and the user should like a system that allows them more choices. 

Hopefully this little brainstorm we've put together will be useful for the developers, maybe give them some new ideas for improving on menuing and clock functionality.

Vice President of Duane's Chumby Buddies Inc, Pro-Clock faction                       Clocks are life; we all expire sometime.
http://forum.chumby.com/viewtopic.php?id=2565

38 (edited by heyartlady 2008-06-12 10:37:10)

Re: My clock conundrum.

That's good, C. Here's another version I've had on my mind. I've been thinking of it when I discovered the wonderful ease of use of the NY Times articles widget. Imagine any FOLDER of widgets that you set up is like the NY Times widget. The NY Times widget is your folder, the NY Times articles are your widgets.

You open the folder, there is a 1/4-3/8's inch strip at the top like where it currently says NY Times with a link to return to menu. That strip could be where the time is, as that line stays there much like the menu line on a computer. It also stays there in the current NY Times widget no matter what article you open. The menu link stays.

As you scroll down though the articles, which are now your widgets in that folder, you select a widget to interact with and the clock and the menu link are still in the top 1/4 inch. When you tire of that widget, you hit the menu link to get back to the list of widgets in that folder. You can go from widget to widget (in one folder) without having to push to top button. When you want to change folders, THEN you can push that _____ button on the top. This will hopefully make sense if you are familiar with the NY Times widgets. I tend to over-explain things.

I think I just solved ALL our problems! C gets her clock, and I'll quit bothering Duane about that _____ button! :-)

Re: My clock conundrum.

That sounds good to me, but I have to go play with the NY times widget to see what you're talking about exactly. 

BTW, do you mean folders to represent something different than channels?

Vice President of Duane's Chumby Buddies Inc, Pro-Clock faction                       Clocks are life; we all expire sometime.
http://forum.chumby.com/viewtopic.php?id=2565

Re: My clock conundrum.

Sorry. Wrong words again. Yes, I was meaning channels. For example, all my Newsreaders are in my News channel, by the way I have sorted them. That one channel could open up like the NY Times widget. If you check it out, there is ONE NY Times widget which is just blurbs, that NOT the one I mean. Go to Arts, World, Top Stories, I think. There's room for a widget pic on each one, like they have an article pic on each article.

41 (edited by Cecilia 2008-06-12 14:57:54)

Re: My clock conundrum.

I just saw that.  It's interesting that the people who made the NY times widget didn't think of having a NY times menu (since they do have that big bar at the top that only says NY times on it) so that you could easily flip to the other NY times options/widgets.  Even though this is only a small portion of your widget-changing issue.

I was just thinking that maybe the bar along the top that displays the time might act like this: double-tap it and you get an either/or menu saying "View this widget? or Select a different widget?"  View this widget would make the time bar disappear and put the current widget into "play" mode, but Select a different widget could give you a list of widgets (a quick-pick list as opposed to a graphic representation that you have to scroll through one at a time) from that channel to choose from.

Vice President of Duane's Chumby Buddies Inc, Pro-Clock faction                       Clocks are life; we all expire sometime.
http://forum.chumby.com/viewtopic.php?id=2565

Re: My clock conundrum.

Yes, As it is, I find it cumbersome to scroll through their articles because you have to figure out how gently/quickly to do it without accidentally opening one. But if you accidentally open one, the menu link takes you right back to the list of articles/widgets easily. Their's is the best widget for linking to other areas that I've seen. Furthermore, once you get IN to their article, there is a tiny scroll bar on the right. That could easily stay there during the list of articles/widgets section, taking away just a 1/4" on the side, therefore giving back the same proportional viewing screen size that Chumby had to begin with. The control panel could remain the same, this only opens up when you select your channel and you use the top button to get back to the control panel.

43 (edited by Cecilia 2008-06-12 12:45:57)

Re: My clock conundrum.

heyartlady wrote:

Furthermore, once you get IN to their article, there is a tiny scroll bar on the right. That could easily stay there during the list of articles/widgets section, taking away just a 1/4" on the side, therefore giving back the same proportional viewing screen size that Chumby had to begin with. The control panel could remain the same, this only opens up when you select your channel and you use the top button to get back to the control panel.

This is actually brilliant, as it relieves Duane from his widget-developer bashing problem!  When you have the time on top option activated, there can also be a translucent scroll bar on the right so that the screen could be "slided" down by the user to display the whole widget (even if a portion of it is lost due to the time on top bar).

While I'm thinking of it, why would a scroll bar be needed at all?  how about a touch-and-drag to move the widget as an entity separate from the time bar?

I'm trying to do some graphical mock-ups, but I'm HORRIBLE with paint shop pro, so it's taking forever :-/

Edit: I just thought of something here that maybe I have in my brain that others might not.  I distinguish between time that I'd just want to view widgets vs when I'm ready to play with them.  So for me, when I'm "just viewing" it's not critical for me to see the whole thing of it until I'm ready to dig deep and play with it (click on options in the widget which would be "play mode").  So that's why I'm thinking I could touch-and-drag a widget to see the whole thing when I'm in "view mode" as opposed to having a widget's controls available to me and I can do what the widget developer wants the actions to do.

Vice President of Duane's Chumby Buddies Inc, Pro-Clock faction                       Clocks are life; we all expire sometime.
http://forum.chumby.com/viewtopic.php?id=2565

44 (edited by Cecilia 2008-06-12 12:20:17)

Re: My clock conundrum.

Okay, here's my first shot:  http://img71.imageshack.us/img71/8474/timemockupav3.th.gif

here it is with a 50px bar and white background with black letters (the contrast should be good to have decent visibility because this bar would *never* be used for Night Mode)

http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/5690/timemockupjl0.th.gif

Vice President of Duane's Chumby Buddies Inc, Pro-Clock faction                       Clocks are life; we all expire sometime.
http://forum.chumby.com/viewtopic.php?id=2565

Re: My clock conundrum.

C: "view mode" as opposed to having a widget's controls available to me and I can do what the widget developer wants the actions to do."


H: I LOVE your mock-up. With regards to the view mode you mentioned, that's where the NYT design is cool. There is a small picture of the article and it could be a small picture of the widget, just as the same small pic displays currently on the control panel. I LIKE this idea and have been thinking it would work for a long time! At least since seeing the NYT widgets. I don't think any part of any developed widget would be under the new display bars; I think it would be able to be designed to be a 1/4" (or whatever) proportional reduction. You'd lose nothing and that much size lost is not even worth worrying about.

I bet we'll BOTH get a t-shirt! AND I'LL GET MY TOUCH SCREEN TAP BACK! DUANE?

46 (edited by Cecilia 2008-06-12 13:28:18)

Re: My clock conundrum.

Here is a mockup of when I reduced the entire widget to account for the 50px I stole for the time bar:

http://img360.imageshack.us/img360/6899/timemockupnq9.th.gif

Looking at it, I think you might get away with less than 50px...? 

An interesting by-product is the space on the sides.  I wonder what would be useful there?

http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/9544/timemockupmg1.th.gif

Vice President of Duane's Chumby Buddies Inc, Pro-Clock faction                       Clocks are life; we all expire sometime.
http://forum.chumby.com/viewtopic.php?id=2565

Re: My clock conundrum.

Cecilia wrote:
What I'm really trying to get us here is a free trip to San Diego to tour the Chumby Industries building and all the developers sitting behind their computer screens trying to figure out how to make us happy big_smile

Heyartlady wrote: (I don't know how ya'll do those quotes) and (how embarrassing. I sat there for 20 minutes refreshing page two and never noticed we had moved on to page three. Going for a record, hmmm?) Anyway, back to the subject at hand; Duane does not want us out there in San Diego because we might find out that the room full of Developers is really just a corner office with one Duane. I said that awhile back, I know everybody there works really hard but I've been reading here since Nov. and all I ever see is Duane, so I figure there is either a room full of Duane's or one Duane in a corner office.

C. I liked the proportions of your very first mock up best. A thin strip across the top and one side, the dark one. Still leaves plenty of widget room. Get it? HUH? Get it? WIDGET room?

Re: My clock conundrum.

C said: An interesting by-product is the space on the sides.  I wonder what would be useful there?

H said: It should say, something to the effect of: "Many thanks to Heyartlady and Cecilia without whom this magnificent design, where we restored the touch screen tap, would not have been possible. Oh, yeah. Then there's the clock, which started it all."  2pt font should do it.

Duh!

49 (edited by Cecilia 2008-06-14 08:10:44)

Re: My clock conundrum.

heyartlady wrote:

Anyway, back to the subject at hand; Duane does not want us out there in San Diego because we might find out that the room full of Developers is really just a corner office with one Duane.

I'm pretty sure you're right.  It makes sense, and if he is the grand poo-bah of developers (and the only one) it makes sense he'd get all defensive when we scream "We want Time Bars" and "We want Widget shortcuts".

heyartlady wrote:

C. I liked the proportions of your very first mock up best. A thin strip across the top and one side, the dark one. Still leaves plenty of widget room. Get it? HUH? Get it? WIDGET room?

I think I like the light text on dark best too.  That first one was 25px, the second double that.  I think it would be best to compromise in-between, because you still need space to stick a finger in there.  You know, to make your time bar disappear or to select a new widget.

Widget room is nice, but we still need space to stick our fingers wink

Vice President of Duane's Chumby Buddies Inc, Pro-Clock faction                       Clocks are life; we all expire sometime.
http://forum.chumby.com/viewtopic.php?id=2565

Re: My clock conundrum.

Cecilia wrote:

Widget room is nice, but we still need space to stick our fingers wink

Did this work? I tried selecting a sentence but it brought up everything so when you said what you said I did it again and took out everything I didn't want. We'll see.

Fingers. I quit the fingers long ago once hubby set down his phone stylus too long. When I can't find that...a crochet hook. I even forgot about the fingers part until you mentioned. So many widgets are unfingerable. Chumchat, some of the games, I enjoy "poking it with a stick!" I just have to remember to put on the nightstand too, when I'm done. Ouch.